ASW 20 Handling Issues?

Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

i did specify east coast. maybe i should have been more clear. northeast.. we don't fly with water most of the time.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

i did specify east coast. maybe i should have been more clear. northeast. we don't fly with water most of the time.

Never flown a 20 or 27 (can't fit in them) but flown numerous very long final glides (50+ miles) against numerous examples of both. This is in the west usually with water. There is a huge difference between them. After 50 miles or so the 27 will be a few hundred feet below my 18m, the 20 will be a few thousand.

20 A/C or 20 B?
A 20 B full of ballast goes pretty good in strong conditions (ridge or thermal), I believe the other 20's are "maxed" at 9LBS.

I have flown a 20 C on the Mifflin ridges (central Pennsylvania for those that don't know, home of some great eastern US ridge flying and many records) against Ventus and LS6 at full weight in regionals and Nationals.
Knowing the area and where gaps were, I could gain, then get run over on longer runs due to wing loading.

In terms of flying any 20, pretty nice ship if you mind CG. Flown with and without winglets.
Yes, 20 A at full landing flaps and dive brakes, you go down like a "homesick brick". Every spring, after a few flights, I would arrive on final waaaaay too high, then "hang it all out" and drop like a stone just to get used to the decent rate.


I flew a 20 C with the CG behind the aft limit ONCE by accident (multiple pilots on a single day, I was the lightweight at about 150LBS, decided to fly with more aft CG, didn't know previous 250 pounder did the same......I didn't count lead discs in the nose.......my bad).
A few aggressive thermal "yank, crank and bank" were met with over the top spin entries at altitude.
Owner saw one (while towing) and asked if I was practicing spin recoveries. Well, yes I was, but that was not the intent.

I have to say, all the "AS" gliders I have flown are fairly easy to get into, even for modest time pilots. Get a good briefing, have some time under your belt, practice some more extreme flying as you gain time.

The earlier comment about getting time in a Cessna 150 and trying full flaps, great idea. I went from "SGS" trainers/low performance to 1-35, PIK-20 and one other in quick succession after a few flights in a 150 where I was shown the relationship of flaps and pitch.

A 20 (having divebrakes) can be easier to transition to compared to "flap only" like a 1-35/PIK/etc. For local flying, set thermal flaps, then fly divebrakes until you get the feel.

So, is a 20 a "spin machine"? No, if being mindful of CG. The 80% of CG is likely fine for most flying. A bit further back may gain a tiny bit of performance but spins become more noticeable.

My 20 was well behaved, but if you have the $$$, go for a 27.

+

Much easier for us older folk to rig
Automatic Hookups
More margin in limit airspeeds

-

Smaller O2 bottle courtesy automatic hookups
Carbon fiber fuselage incompatible with internal transponder or flarm
antenna

When buying a single seater, be extra cautious if the seller is heavier
than you. I
took several lead plates above the tailskid out of the 20 after doing a W&B
and
calculating where I wanted the CG. At 80% my 20 was well behaved.

If you happen to get bit by a 25+ kt gust, you may discover some unusual
attitudes that you can't reproduce in better behaved air.