Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam

On 12 Jul 2004 22:09:50 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/12/2004 2:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

But he said he murdered innocent women and children.

So did I. I was a bombardier over Europe.So what? Kerry at least had a shred
of honesty to admit it..

Let me try to construct a parallel between your experiences and mine,
so that we can possibly find a common ground to understand the
animosity I might feel.

You were a bombardier in B-26s over Europe. You went and fought and
stayed the course. You completed fifty missions.

Now, let's take someone in B-26s. Let's make it an aircraft
commander--not simply a crew-member, but a commander of the vehicle.
Let's say he had some minor injuries. Nothing serious. No
hospitalization, no lost limbs, no surgery. Just injuries. He opted
out of completing his tour. Lemme see, four months out of a one year
tour, so let's say he flew 17 missions out of the 50. Then he went
home. The rest of you on his crew slogged on without him.

But, when he got home, he didn't wear his decorations proudly and
support his brothers in arms still fighting the war that their nation
asked them to fight. He abandoned his uniform and spoke out against
the war. He went still further. He went to Congress, stood before the
US Senate and said that you and he had been guilty of war crimes. That
you had all committed atrocities. That you were rapists, baby-killers
and violators of the Geneva convention. Would he be exhibiting
"honesty to admit it"?

The German propaganda machine embraced his statements. Publicized them
and called him courageous. Would you? Would the other members of your
crew? Would you call him a hero?

Do you see a parallel here?

Meanwhile, your father, who fought valiantly for his country in WW I
(or the Spanish-American War) or whatever, began to speak out against
FDR. Accusing him of being a wealthy child of privilege who never wore
the uniform and dragged his country into WW II for his own benefit and
under false pretenses. That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason. Way too many were dying in Europe for the benefit of the
French who never liked us anyway. Besides, the war had dragged on much
too long and we ought to get rid of him.

Do you see a parallel here?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Let me try to construct a parallel between your experiences and mine,
so that we can possibly find a common ground to understand the
animosity I might feel.

You were a bombardier in B-26s over Europe. You went and fought and
stayed the course. You completed fifty missions.

Now, let's take someone in B-26s. Let's make it an aircraft
commander--not simply a crew-member, but a commander of the vehicle.
Let's say he had some minor injuries. Nothing serious. No
hospitalization, no lost limbs, no surgery. Just injuries. He opted
out of completing his tour. Lemme see, four months out of a one year
tour, so let's say he flew 17 missions out of the 50. Then he went
home. The rest of you on his crew slogged on without him.

But, when he got home, he didn't wear his decorations proudly and
support his brothers in arms still fighting the war that their nation
asked them to fight. He abandoned his uniform and spoke out against
the war. He went still further. He went to Congress, stood before the
US Senate and said that you and he had been guilty of war crimes. That
you had all committed atrocities. That you were rapists, baby-killers
and violators of the Geneva convention. Would he be exhibiting
"honesty to admit it"?

The German propaganda machine embraced his statements. Publicized them
and called him courageous. Would you? Would the other members of your
crew? Would you call him a hero?

Do you see a parallel here?

Meanwhile, your father, who fought valiantly for his country in WW I
(or the Spanish-American War) or whatever, began to speak out against
FDR. Accusing him of being a wealthy child of privilege who never wore
the uniform and dragged his country into WW II for his own benefit and
under false pretenses. That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason. Way too many were dying in Europe for the benefit of the
French who never liked us anyway. Besides, the war had dragged on much
too long and we ought to get rid of him.

Do you see a parallel here?


Ed, that was awsome, but Kramer will just ignore it, he has to.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 12 Jul 2004 22:09:50 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/12/2004 2:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

But he said he murdered innocent women and children.

So did I. I was a bombardier over Europe.So what? Kerry at least had a shred
of honesty to admit it..

Let me try to construct a parallel between your experiences and mine,
so that we can possibly find a common ground to understand the
animosity I might feel.

You were a bombardier in B-26s over Europe. You went and fought and
stayed the course. You completed fifty missions.

Now, let's take someone in B-26s. Let's make it an aircraft
commander--not simply a crew-member, but a commander of the vehicle.
Let's say he had some minor injuries. Nothing serious. No
hospitalization, no lost limbs, no surgery. Just injuries. He opted
out of completing his tour. Lemme see, four months out of a one year
tour, so let's say he flew 17 missions out of the 50. Then he went
home. The rest of you on his crew slogged on without him.

But, when he got home, he didn't wear his decorations proudly and
support his brothers in arms still fighting the war that their nation
asked them to fight. He abandoned his uniform and spoke out against
the war. He went still further. He went to Congress, stood before the
US Senate and said that you and he had been guilty of war crimes. That
you had all committed atrocities. That you were rapists, baby-killers
and violators of the Geneva convention. Would he be exhibiting
"honesty to admit it"?

The German propaganda machine embraced his statements. Publicized them
and called him courageous. Would you? Would the other members of your
crew? Would you call him a hero?

Do you see a parallel here?

Meanwhile, your father, who fought valiantly for his country in WW I
(or the Spanish-American War) or whatever, began to speak out against
FDR. Accusing him of being a wealthy child of privilege who never wore
the uniform and dragged his country into WW II for his own benefit and
under false pretenses. That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason. Way too many were dying in Europe for the benefit of the
French who never liked us anyway. Besides, the war had dragged on much
too long and we ought to get rid of him.

Do you see a parallel here?

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8



Thank you Ed.
That puts it in perspective and, who knows, might make a few people
think.

Dave

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/12/2004 3:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 12 Jul 2004 22:09:50 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/12/2004 2:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

Kerry was and is a true decorated war hero.

But he said he murdered innocent women and children.

So did I. I was a bombardier over Europe.So what? Kerry at least had a
shred
of honesty to admit it..

Let me try to construct a parallel between your experiences and mine,
so that we can possibly find a common ground to understand the
animosity I might feel.

You were a bombardier in B-26s over Europe. You went and fought and
stayed the course. You completed fifty missions.

Now, let's take someone in B-26s. Let's make it an aircraft
commander--not simply a crew-member, but a commander of the vehicle.
Let's say he had some minor injuries. Nothing serious. No
hospitalization, no lost limbs, no surgery. Just injuries. He opted
out of completing his tour. Lemme see, four months out of a one year
tour, so let's say he flew 17 missions out of the 50. Then he went
home. The rest of you on his crew slogged on without him.

But, when he got home, he didn't wear his decorations proudly and
support his brothers in arms still fighting the war that their nation
asked them to fight. He abandoned his uniform and spoke out against
the war. He went still further. He went to Congress, stood before the
US Senate and said that you and he had been guilty of war crimes. That
you had all committed atrocities. That you were rapists, baby-killers
and violators of the Geneva convention. Would he be exhibiting
"honesty to admit it"?

The German propaganda machine embraced his statements. Publicized them
and called him courageous. Would you? Would the other members of your
crew? Would you call him a hero?

Do you see a parallel here?

Meanwhile, your father, who fought valiantly for his country in WW I
(or the Spanish-American War) or whatever, began to speak out against
FDR. Accusing him of being a wealthy child of privilege who never wore
the uniform and dragged his country into WW II for his own benefit and
under false pretenses. That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason. Way too many were dying in Europe for the benefit of the
French who never liked us anyway. Besides, the war had dragged on much
too long and we ought to get rid of him.

Do you see a parallel here?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Yes I see the paralell. And I can't disagree with anything you said. And I
understand your feelings in the matter and share many of them However there may
be some other issues worth considering When I flew my missions over western
Europe I bombed many cities And as I saw my bombs explode on the ground I
wondered how many children were down there.How many woman. I also strafed from
down on the deck and could plainly see woman and children in my line of fire.
That is not easy to forget. It still comes to me in the night even after 60
years. It comes to many of us that way. For example the bombardier on the Enola
Gay became a priest in Japan. But we all knew that WW II had tot be fought no
matter what the cost. And while the guilt lingers, we can live with it But Viet
Nam was another matter entirely. There were more quetions than answers. More
doubts that convictions and many doubted the war in every sense. Kerry did.
His guilt was something he had to taken action aginst. And while I would never
throw my medals away as he did, I can understand him but not agree with him.
And when it comes to the deaths of innocents I can understand his feelings in
the matter just as I can understand yours.
But you and I and Kerry know all too well what the elephant looks like. And we
are just a small breed apart vis-a-vis those who have never seen the beast.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

But Viet
Nam was another matter entirely. There were more quetions than answers. More
doubts that convictions and many doubted the war in every sense. Kerry did.
His guilt was something he had to taken action aginst. And while I would
never
throw my medals away as he did, I can understand him but not agree with him.
And when it comes to the deaths of innocents I can understand his feelings in
the matter just as I can understand yours.
But you and I and Kerry know all too well what the elephant looks like. And
we
are just a small breed apart vis-a-vis those who have never seen the beast.


Arthur Kramer

Art, I understand all that too as you would expect. On the other hand, that
sort of behavior as his and especially his association with Jane Fonda cost
lives by encouraging the enemy. My ass was on the line literally while she was
being photographed sitting in the chair of a 37 or 57mm AAA gun and I only
wished one of our bombs had reached her. There are far better ways to express
one's opposition to a war than to rub **** in the faces of the guys who had to
face those guns on a daily basis. I am absolutely certain you would react the
same way had an American done likewise on a German AAA peice in the ETO.

So I have some very serious misgivings about John Kerry, his judgement, and his
true reasons for his wartime and post wartime behavior. I've no doubt that his
behavior encouraged the enemy just as Fonda's did. Then to seemingly discard
his medals as he did regardless of whether he earned them, only to later
display them proudly and allow others to play off his herosim, devotion to duty
and loyalty to his men is totally unconscionable to me.

Regardless of whether GWB was AWOL or not, at least none of his actions
discredited the nation and its warriors. But then we elected Clintion so I
guess duty, honor and country only matter to a few of us.

Steve



Just as in Iraq the beheadings draw far more publicity because they are
plastered all over the front page of the world's newspapers.

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
...
That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason.

In WWII Germany declared war on the US befor the US reciprocated.
Germany attacked US shipping befor we fired a shot at them.

Many other argumetns can be made but please, let's make them
within the context of historical reality.

--

FF

On 13 Jul 2004 17:15:57 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
...
That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason.

In WWII Germany declared war on the US befor the US reciprocated.
Germany attacked US shipping befor we fired a shot at them.

Many other argumetns can be made but please, let's make them
within the context of historical reality.

This is called "allegory"--I honestly don't believe that Art had a
father in the Spanish-American War who said any such thing regarding
the correctness of our entry into WW II. I was making a literary
comparision between the nay-sayers of 2004 and the similarity in the
past.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On 13 Jul 2004 17:15:57 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
...
That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason.

In WWII Germany declared war on the US befor the US reciprocated.
Germany attacked US shipping befor we fired a shot at them.

Many other argumetns can be made but please, let's make them
within the context of historical reality.

This is called "allegory"--I honestly don't believe that Art had a
father in the Spanish-American War ...

Of course not.

But your choice of allegory furthered the myth that the US declared
war on Germany first in WWII. It is a persistant myth that needs
debunking whenever it is implied.

--

FF

On 15 Jul 2004 12:50:02 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On 13 Jul 2004 17:15:57 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
...
That while Japan did attack us, the Germans did
no such thing and we were dragged into the conflict for no good
reason.

In WWII Germany declared war on the US befor the US reciprocated.
Germany attacked US shipping befor we fired a shot at them.

Many other argumetns can be made but please, let's make them
within the context of historical reality.

This is called "allegory"--I honestly don't believe that Art had a
father in the Spanish-American War ...

Of course not.

But your choice of allegory furthered the myth that the US declared
war on Germany first in WWII. It is a persistant myth that needs
debunking whenever it is implied.

Ahhh, hoist on my own petard. As a chronic debunker of persistent
myths, I must accede to your demands. My parallelism of FDR going to
war against Germany when it was the Japanese who attacked us was much
too obtuse in the relationship of the current argument that we went to
war in Afghanistan & Iraq when the attackers of 9/11 were Saudi.

Please debunk me whenever I imply. And, I will reciprocate. Hopefully
in understandable metaphor.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..


Please debunk me whenever I imply. And, I will reciprocate. Hopefully
in understandable metaphor.


Being confident that I shall afford you the opportunity, I now
thank you in advance.

--

FF