Best Path to Race

If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 5:22:02 PM UTC+3, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB

Grid girls/boys (as appropriate). With umbrellas.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/53/110...1567e2c1_o.jpg

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB

Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!

...And speaking of parking money rather than spending it, I've made
money on 4 or my last 5 ships.Â* You could just as well lose money, but
chalk that up to cheap rent for a very nice ride.Â* Still a nice investment!

If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

On 11/23/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB
Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!

--
Dan, 5J

While my glider owing/selling experience is not current, yes buying a glider is like parking money, but you do lose the time value of time. All the gliders I have sold were sold for the same price I purchased said glider for five or so years earlier.

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 7:44:22 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
...And speaking of parking money rather than spending it, I've made
money on 4 or my last 5 ships.Â* You could just as well lose money, but
chalk that up to cheap rent for a very nice ride.Â* Still a nice investment!

If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

On 11/23/2017 8:12 AM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 7:22:02 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
If you have the money there is no reason not to get a modern glider. They are easier to fly, safer, and also happen to perform better. If you don't think you have the money, look a little deeper in to your wallet. Two years from now you will suddenly discover that you do! Gliders are actually not that expensive. Yes, the capital cost is high, but they keep their value well, and they require little maintenance. You have money tied up in a glider, not money spent on a glider. Flaps on a modern glider like ASW27 are a non issue -- simply better in every way, and not a big complexity for a good new pilot (especially with airline background) to deal with. The sweet spot right now is buying a great 15 meter racer like a 27 or V2 from pilots who discover then absolutely need to spend $50k on 3 more meters of wing.

Go to contests sooner rather than later. My greatest regret is not thinking I was ready for too many years. Once you are reasonably competent at thermaling, have done 5 cross country flights of 100 miles or so, off to a sports class regionals. They are really xc training camps, not contests. You learn so much more so quickly at a regional contest than heading out alone. Forget the race, think of it as a camp. Every day, you will get a detailed weather briefing, an experienced pilot will set the best task for the day and the weather, experienced pilots will happily offer all sorts of advice on how to do the task, tows are provided, even wing runners are provided, there is a retrieve desk to help out should you need it, towplanes will come get you from nearby airports, and then experienced pilots will help debrief. Most of all, you will learn that it is possible and practical to go out cross country on days that you would not normally get out of bed, and to complete the task too. And then there will be beer. What more could one want?

John Cochrane BB
Thanks to all of you for the great advice! One can read all of the Dick Johnson reports, but hearing from owners is even better.

I may have been a bit too conservative on when I should get involved in contests. A pleasant surprise certainly.

It seems my initial plan of going straight to a competitive ship and bypassing a less competitive "xc-trainer" ship is vindicated.

The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership. And of course, I deal with flaps every day at work, it's not Rocket Science.

And as John Cochrane said, aside from the ongoing costs it's closer to parking money than spending it. So I will be open to each option, ultimately what's going to make that decision is the right ship at the right price.

Happy Thanksgiving!

--
Dan, 5J

If you can, fly both flapped and standard ships before deciding. Notice
what happens when the flaps are set to the full negative setting...

Think positive, flap negative (Sounds better in German: Denk positif, wölb negatif)

So buy a flapped ship and lock the flaps in neutral (not really, just think of the as fixed). Fly thermals 5 knots faster, cruise with less efficiency, land with slightly less control,

Then just once sneak the flaps down in a thermal and notice how nice it is. Put them negative above 75 knots, gee it goes better. All the way down landing, much better control. After a few repetitions you wonder why you even worried about it

Bruce Patton
Old HP-18 driver

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 6:21:28 AM UTC+3, wrote:
So buy a flapped ship and lock the flaps in neutral (not really, just think of the as fixed). Fly thermals 5 knots faster, cruise with less efficiency, land with slightly less control,

That seems like a very bad idea. If it's got flaps then the designer assumes you'll use them. A flapped glider in 0 does not in general have the same airfoil as a non-flapped glider -- the airfoil may be thinner and the max CL and AoA may be less.

If you're going to leave the flap lever locked (which I emphasise is not a good idea) then I'd suggest locking it in +1. Then the glider will work as designed for takeoff and thermalling. You'll lose performance in cruise of course, but that happens as soon as you ignore the minus settings anyway. Check the manual to see if this will reduce Vne or load factors (it probably won't).

Back when my club had a Janus and I was giving trial flights in it, I'd set it in +1 (6 degrees) before handing it over to the student. It pretty much turned the Janus into a Grob :-) Much easier for them.

But buying a flapped glider and then not using the flaps is worse in every way that just buying a non-flapped glider. Don't do it.

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 21:12:23 -0800 (PST), Bruce Hoult
wrote:


If you're going to leave the flap lever locked (which I emphasise is not a good idea) then I'd suggest locking it in +1. Then the glider will work as designed for takeoff and thermalling. You'll lose performance in cruise of course, but that happens as soon as you ignore the minus settings anyway. Check the manual to see if this will reduce Vne or load factors (it probably won't).

Try that in an, let's say, ASW-20, and you won't even get off the
ground because you won't have any aileron authority at all as long as
the tail is on the ground.


But buying a flapped glider and then not using the flaps is worse in every way that just buying a non-flapped glider. Don't do it.

I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
from the men).

On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
less prone to error the flaps are to handle.

On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 6:12:09 PM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan wrote:
The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages say 15 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not like I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going to lose sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's like driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it after the first day of ownership.

Exactly. Gliders vary so look in your handbook, but I'd say it's generally something like this:

L: Landing. Short final, definitely got the field made
+2: geez this core is narrow! Rack it in there!
+1: normal thermalling and aerotow
0: cruising, from min sink up to 15 or 20 knots above best L/D, noodling around looking for lift
-1: normal fast inter-thermal cruise
-2: flat out between 100ish knots and Vne

It's pretty easy to use it exactly like a gear change, depending on what flight mode you're in. Generally you lead with the flap, adjusting it for the speed you want to go, not the speed you are going now.