Soaring Schools

OK John -- now that I understand your situation, I can make some suggestions ... I am not sure that what I am going to say will be what you or others might want to hear (indeed I wonder if this will generate any flames), but this is my experience --

0. -- a "zeroth thing:" when you are learning to fly frequency matters enormously. If you cannot fly at least once a week ... you are basically wasting your time, you'll make next to no progress. This is why "residential" commercial soaring schools can make sense -- you fly A LOT. The obverse of this is the bane of long-distance membership in a club ... and few clubs operate every day of the week, and many are generally weekends only.

1. It's pretty easy to solo (really!) -- and there are various degrees of soloing (more about that), but the hard problem for most beginning soaring pilots is to make the transition from having gotten solo, to actually being a confident glider pilot who can fly cross-country. As an old-timer CFI-G .... there's nothing more frustrating than doing the work to train a student to solo, maybe even pass the Private Pilot's Exam (PPE) and then see them disappear from the sport.

And sadly, that is more the norm than the exception.

2. LOTS of soaring pilots drive 3 hours each way -- I did for years; first living in the Bay Area and going out to Minden, then living in Seattle and going out to Ephrata. One usually does this by either bunking there one way or another... 3 day weekends etc.

3. If there are no local soaring enthusiasts and you are truly determined to be able to fly from someplace close to home then you have two choices -- get to the point where you can fly a motor-glider & buy one (this comes with limitations and is expensive) ... or ... start a soaring club! That's not as impossible as it may appear, if you can find enough like-minded people (like maybe 10). This means finding/arranging for a local tow-plane and persuading a CFI-G to come to you ... this is not out of the question (among other things often they are power pilots too, and that speeds their commute compared to yours).

Now, as far as "getting solo" there are (typically) very substantial differences in the commercial training and club-training settings. Commercial training is fast, expensive, and really oriented toward that solo. In almost all cases in the US commercial training is done in a SGS 2-33 ... a very safe, easy to fly, rugged glider. But this will postpone "the transition" to something that flies (and lands, the hard part) like a modern sailplane ... and the sad fact of the matter AFAIS is that most people who train commercially in 2-33s never go beyond solo, most don't even transition into a 1-26 (a fun low-performance single-seater that is a reasonable transition from a 2-33).

For years the "more advanced" trainer was the Blanik L-13, unfortunately an FAA airworthiness directive grounded them all. There is a successor to the L-13, the L-23, but it isn't all that common. Most instructors (me included) don't like it as much as the L-13, and they are disliked for being maintenance pigs. My club got rid of 2 of them for the latter reason.

The loss of L-13s has shifted most commercial operations back to training in 2-33s exclusively ... and as the gap between 2-33 performance and modern sailplane performance (and flying technique) grows fewer solo students stick with the sport, and I think that this is one of the things that is killing the sport in the US.

In Europe now the standard trainers are the Grob 103, the ASK-21 ... and gasp ... the DuoDiscus!

Given what I see as the realities -- here are my suggestions

If you can find a competent power CFI and arrange access to a Champ or Citabria or possibly J-3 cub (less attractive for some subtle reasons) in your area, my advice is learn to fly that first ... at least through solo, maybe all the way through the PPE.

This will be really efficient, and close to home. And if you can REALLY fly a Champ or Citabria, PARTICULARLY if you can do unruffled full-stall landings in a 10 kt crosswind ... then you can transition into sailplanes really quickly. The ability to land a taildragger in a a crosswind is exactly the skill set needed to transition into a higher-performance sailplane (although the "sight picture" is quite different.)

The 2-33 flies like a Champ without an engine -- I have literally done two tows in a 2-33 with a really experienced power CFI who flew taildraggers really well, said "go fly it solo" ... and he was entirely ready to do that.

From that skill base you can transition quickly to a 1-26, and after a bit of that transition from there if you want to.

The other way is to find training in a G-103 or ASK-21 (the latter are rare in the US). Mostly these will be clubs. Training in the club setting is very different than training at a commercial operation -- you put in a LOT more labor contribution, also a lot more "standing around time." And instructors in clubs (like me!) are usually much less eager to just get you solo ... why do that? Instruction (per se) is almost always free or very low cost in clubs, so there's no incentive (properly seen) to solo early, why take that risk?

I don't like to solo students until they are very close to PP performance -- you only need 10 solo flights and 2 hours (and some more instruction) before taking the PP exam ... there's no incentive in the club setting for early solo, when the goal is to get you through to really being a soaring pilot.

Thanks again for a well thought out and reasoned reply. The one facility here in Bozeman MT has both a 2-33 and a duo discus that they can use for training. Right now that is the way I’m leaning: schedule a week off and drive the 4hrs or so and take the lessons there untilim competent in the “glass ship�.

You may also see a new post in the future from me regarding what is needed to get a glider club up and running. :-)

On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 10:08:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
OK John -- now that I understand your situation, I can make some suggestions ... I am not sure that what I am going to say will be what you or others might want to hear (indeed I wonder if this will generate any flames), but this is my experience --

0. -- a "zeroth thing:" when you are learning to fly frequency matters enormously. If you cannot fly at least once a week ... you are basically wasting your time, you'll make next to no progress. This is why "residential" commercial soaring schools can make sense -- you fly A LOT. The obverse of this is the bane of long-distance membership in a club ... and few clubs operate every day of the week, and many are generally weekends only.

1. It's pretty easy to solo (really!) -- and there are various degrees of soloing (more about that), but the hard problem for most beginning soaring pilots is to make the transition from having gotten solo, to actually being a confident glider pilot who can fly cross-country. As an old-timer CFI-G ... there's nothing more frustrating than doing the work to train a student to solo, maybe even pass the Private Pilot's Exam (PPE) and then see them disappear from the sport.

And sadly, that is more the norm than the exception.

2. LOTS of soaring pilots drive 3 hours each way -- I did for years; first living in the Bay Area and going out to Minden, then living in Seattle and going out to Ephrata. One usually does this by either bunking there one way or another... 3 day weekends etc.

3. If there are no local soaring enthusiasts and you are truly determined to be able to fly from someplace close to home then you have two choices -- get to the point where you can fly a motor-glider & buy one (this comes with limitations and is expensive) ... or ... start a soaring club! That's not as impossible as it may appear, if you can find enough like-minded people (like maybe 10). This means finding/arranging for a local tow-plane and persuading a CFI-G to come to you ... this is not out of the question (among other things often they are power pilots too, and that speeds their commute compared to yours).

Now, as far as "getting solo" there are (typically) very substantial differences in the commercial training and club-training settings. Commercial training is fast, expensive, and really oriented toward that solo. In almost all cases in the US commercial training is done in a SGS 2-33 ... a very safe, easy to fly, rugged glider. But this will postpone "the transition" to something that flies (and lands, the hard part) like a modern sailplane ... and the sad fact of the matter AFAIS is that most people who train commercially in 2-33s never go beyond solo, most don't even transition into a 1-26 (a fun low-performance single-seater that is a reasonable transition from a 2-33).

For years the "more advanced" trainer was the Blanik L-13, unfortunately an FAA airworthiness directive grounded them all. There is a successor to the L-13, the L-23, but it isn't all that common. Most instructors (me included) don't like it as much as the L-13, and they are disliked for being maintenance pigs. My club got rid of 2 of them for the latter reason.

The loss of L-13s has shifted most commercial operations back to training in 2-33s exclusively ... and as the gap between 2-33 performance and modern sailplane performance (and flying technique) grows fewer solo students stick with the sport, and I think that this is one of the things that is killing the sport in the US.

In Europe now the standard trainers are the Grob 103, the ASK-21 ... and gasp ... the DuoDiscus!

Given what I see as the realities -- here are my suggestions

If you can find a competent power CFI and arrange access to a Champ or Citabria or possibly J-3 cub (less attractive for some subtle reasons) in your area, my advice is learn to fly that first ... at least through solo, maybe all the way through the PPE.

This will be really efficient, and close to home. And if you can REALLY fly a Champ or Citabria, PARTICULARLY if you can do unruffled full-stall landings in a 10 kt crosswind ... then you can transition into sailplanes really quickly. The ability to land a taildragger in a a crosswind is exactly the skill set needed to transition into a higher-performance sailplane (although the "sight picture" is quite different.)

The 2-33 flies like a Champ without an engine -- I have literally done two tows in a 2-33 with a really experienced power CFI who flew taildraggers really well, said "go fly it solo" ... and he was entirely ready to do that..

From that skill base you can transition quickly to a 1-26, and after a bit of that transition from there if you want to.

The other way is to find training in a G-103 or ASK-21 (the latter are rare in the US). Mostly these will be clubs. Training in the club setting is very different than training at a commercial operation -- you put in a LOT more labor contribution, also a lot more "standing around time." And instructors in clubs (like me!) are usually much less eager to just get you solo ... why do that? Instruction (per se) is almost always free or very low cost in clubs, so there's no incentive (properly seen) to solo early, why take that risk?

I don't like to solo students until they are very close to PP performance -- you only need 10 solo flights and 2 hours (and some more instruction) before taking the PP exam ... there's no incentive in the club setting for early solo, when the goal is to get you through to really being a soaring pilot.

But if you come into a club solo or better in a Champ, you will move through that training quickly.

A good club offers you the support of experienced soaring pilots flying "glass birds" to help you make the transition to being a real soaring pilot. That's a longer and more subtle transition.

Thanks for another well-thought out and reasoned reply. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I have contacted the training program in Bozeman, MT, and apparently they use both a 2-33 as well as a Duo Discus. This is the direction I am leaning, and will likely go--take a week off and drive the 4hrs or so and get as much training as possible during that time. And then repeat as often as necessary/possible.

You will also likely see another thread from me in the near future regarding what is involved to get a glider club off the ground. I see so much potential for our local area, and it will be an integral component in getting me more flight time! :-)

Best of luck ... let me know how it goes.

I am a little wary of "-take a week off and drive the 4 hrs or so and get as much training as possible during that time. And then repeat as often as necessary/possible. "

Unless you can take a week off every other week or so ... that may not be a good way. You may be better off taking fridays &/or mondays off and doing sequential 3/4-day weekends until you "git 'er done."

In the old days it was common for people to solo a 2-33 in two weeks or less of flying every day at commercial operations -- indeed many years ago I instructed for one outfit that "guaranteed" it -- on closer inspection that guarantee wasn't worth much.

That wasn't such a good idea, and I wouldn't recommend or expect it today .... but it shouldn't take twice that to get to the private pilots ... of STEADY flying.

Remember that back in WWII both fighter and bomber pilots were trained from nothing in 60 days ... granted a lot of them did not last long in combat, but they were trained to handle much more complex aircraft (and instruments, night flying, rudiments of gunnery and combat) in 60 days!

But while you are learning ... and indeed until you are well through the PP and have some experience beyond that ... flying steadily is key.

And if you do want to get a glider club off the ground ... then find at least 10 like-minded people ... and get back to me and or others ... and you'll be surprised how much help and experience will materialize.

Cheers,

Lee