Hard Deck

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:32:56 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 2:14:55 PM UTC-5, ND wrote:

i get what you're saying, but i flat don't agree and i don't think it will improve accident records or prevent all bad behavior that it's intending to stop.

ND

Andy,

John (and Jon) have been quite explicit: They don't give a f@#& about your safety or your behavior. They care that you cannot get any speed points for doing something they don't approve of. Big difference.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

That is exactly right. Except for the "they don't approve of" part. It should be "the consensus doesn't approve of". The question - other than the technical implementation issues (and necessarily prior to it) - is "what is the consensus for acceptable behavior?". This appears to be the main point of contention. It appears that the consensus here is that circling at 300 ft is acceptable, and therefore should be legal in competition. If that is the broad consensus, I'm OK with that, even if it means I may be less competitive, or I vote with my feet.

Don't kid yourself that this isn't reward for risk though. In JJ's story, he got a landout and the other guy got away, probably with 300 more points. Extending this further, what if the bump was at 200'? 100'? The rules committee has to decide that some things are not acceptable, or that anything goes as long as the pilot lives through it. One of the consequences is that many mainstream pilots consider racing to be too risky to participate. I can think offhand of about 10 pilots just at my local glider port who cite this as the primary reason they do not. Not a single one mentions complexity of the rules.

Crashes are never a binary thing: below 300 ft you crash, above that you don't. Rather, below 300' your probability of crashing is higher than above 300' for everyone; and a pilot very experienced as circling below 300' is less likely to crash than one inexperienced at it. Perhaps to gain that experience he had to crash a few times, or at least buy an underwear store. Does anyone know an instructor who will take them out in a two seat to teach circling below 300'? Why not, if it is perfectly safe? I know about 10 CFIGs in the area, not a single one would consider it.

I assumed that there would be a maximum acceptable risk for competition, and that if it could be enforced by rules, this would be fair for everyone and increase participation - unless the skill of circling below 300 ft without crashing is a key skill that we are trying to measure. It appears that among the participants in this discussion (which are a very small minority of the racing community, and a minuscule minority of the soaring community) there is no stomach for this. In maintaining the status quo, you may also be maintaining the currently continuous shrinking trend of the sport.

"unless the skill of circling below 300 ft without crashing is a key skill that we are trying to measure."

I would bet no one would say this is a skill anyone is testing in a contest.

I had very good training by a Hall of Fame pilot
1. Aren't we supposed to be over the field we selected and able to do a complete pattern, at pattern altitude?
2. Every off farmer field landing I have ever done was the first time I have landed in that field!

So the time you need to look at it and set up is not happening below pattern altitude - we do not have/allow 300 ft patterns at our club - matter of fact we don't have/allow 500 ft patterns either

I do like Andy's suggestion, as it has more teaching power - circle below a given altitude anywhere in the contest and explain the "why this was safe" to the room full of pilots the next day.......... Ouch!

Been there done that - will try to never do that again!

WH

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 4:43:48 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
One of the consequences is that many mainstream pilots consider racing to be too risky to participate. I can think offhand of about 10 pilots just at my local glider port who cite this as the primary reason they do not. Not a single one mentions complexity of the rules.

Risk (at least w.r.t. terrain, weather) is in your own hands, always!!

Changing rules can have no effect here. What isn't obvious about this?

No one is ever obligated to do anything unsafe in competition.

It is very possible to scorch the field without taking any significant amount of risk.

Evan Ludeman / T8