Hard Deck

Rules of golf: 200 pages
Sailing: 190 pages
Tennis: 38 pages
Soaring: 34 pages

Argument against rules is a red herring. Anyone using that as an excuse not to fly contests, I just don't buy it. If you can decipher an aeronautical chart you can figure out the rules of soaring.

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 2:03:08 PM UTC-8, Clay wrote:
Rules of golf: 200 pages
Sailing: 190 pages
Tennis: 38 pages
Soaring: 34 pages

Argument against rules is a red herring. Anyone using that as an excuse not to fly contests, I just don't buy it. If you can decipher an aeronautical chart you can figure out the rules of soaring.

It would make an interesting pole, among all pilots who might consider racing (participants and potential participants): What is your number one concern in soaring competition: 1) Safety, 2) rules complexity.

In my own informal polling #1 wins hands down, #2 is rarely mentioned if at all.

Acceptance of risk is an interesting and well studied bit of human psychology. The longer you engage in risk the more accepting of it you become, even though the risk does not change.

In my informal and formal polling, among people who fly contests, safety is far down on the list.

The major safety concern is that "some other bozo will run in to me," hence you can get some interest about midairs, including flarm and procedures to help avoid midairs like not setting out and return assigned tasks. Note that its always the other bozo. Midairs are far, far, down the list of actual accident causes but by far the main -- if not only -- concern of most pilots. Other refinements of the rules for safety, removing points incentives for risks, such as high finishes are down in the tar and feather and drive you out of town realm of unpopularity.

Complaining about complexity is very high on the list, until you propose measures that would actually help complexity. Eliminate the complex graduated penalties? Well, we don't like complexity but not that one. And so it goes..

John Cochrane

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 3:26:01 PM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
In my informal and formal polling, among people who fly contests, safety is far down on the list.


But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

The rules aren't any more complicated than many other sports. Certainly not as complicated as sailing. The scoring on the other hand is pegged at the complex end of sports. So, yes, a scoring overhaul seems like a good idea.

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

The reason I don't enter a race at the local ski hill is "I don't know how to do that safely". It's nothing to do with the sport, which although clearly dangerous, is "safe enough" in the hands of the appropriately skilled. If there isn't a large element of this in the responses you have summarized... there probably should be. Not all racing venues are beginner friendly..

There are many ways that you could create a beginner friendly racing environment in e.g. the Sierras, and you have suggested a few yourself. If anyone is inclined to do this, why not give it a try on a non-sanctioned basis? There's no need to change the rules for the rest of the world for this.

Or perhaps your friends just aren't interested in racing.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:07:14 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

The reason I don't enter a race at the local ski hill is "I don't know how to do that safely". It's nothing to do with the sport, which although clearly dangerous, is "safe enough" in the hands of the appropriately skilled.. If there isn't a large element of this in the responses you have summarized... there probably should be. Not all racing venues are beginner friendly.

There are many ways that you could create a beginner friendly racing environment in e.g. the Sierras, and you have suggested a few yourself. If anyone is inclined to do this, why not give it a try on a non-sanctioned basis? There's no need to change the rules for the rest of the world for this.

Or perhaps your friends just aren't interested in racing.

Evan Ludeman / T8

Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves. The pilots I have asked will (and often do) fly the same terrain on the same day - they aren't beginners and this is not beginner terrain where we fly. Several have participated in a few races, then quit doing so because they felt they needed to violate their minimum safety criteria to have any chance. You can't have it both ways: "if you don't like it don't race" and "we want more people to race".

The idea that folks should show up, pay the entry fee, take the time off, just to participate for fun using a different standard of safety with the knowledge that this will make them uncompetitive isn't attractive to a lot of pilots. They can go fly and have a nice cross country day anytime, anywhere, without any of that.

By keeping the sport confined to your definition of pure, you are making it vanish. In almost all speed sports, rules have been put in place to curtail extreme behavior for the sake of fair and safe competition. Why is soaring so different?

Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves. The pilots I have asked will (and often do) fly the same terrain on the same day - they aren't beginners and this is not beginner terrain where we fly. Several have participated in a few races, then quit doing so because they felt they needed to violate their minimum safety criteria to have any chance. You can't have it both ways: "if you don't like it don't race" and "we want more people to race".

The idea that folks should show up, pay the entry fee, take the time off, just to participate for fun using a different standard of safety with the knowledge that this will make them uncompetitive isn't attractive to a lot of pilots. They can go fly and have a nice cross country day anytime, anywhere, without any of that.

By keeping the sport confined to your definition of pure, you are making it vanish. In almost all speed sports, rules have been put in place to curtail extreme behavior for the sake of fair and safe competition. Why is soaring so different?

P3 has floated the idea of skill/experience-based classes. When I road-raced motorcycles, that was the system. It is fun to race against people of similar experience, and not be getting stuffed by the fast guys in every corner. The trophies come quicker too. In soaring, even in Sports Class, you'll be competing against WGC caliber pilots. Kinda exciting, but not so much when you get smoked by 20 mph. But I don't know if we really have the level of participation to do this kind of format, or even if it would solve anything.

"Something is keeping pilots from racing in droves" from up-thread.

First off, I have no dog in this fight. I have never entered a competition and, likely, never will. I can't comment on the safety aspect and how that would impact my decision to race. I did fly in the back seat with KS once at a regional and found the whole thing to be an awesome experience and not the least bit worrying from a safety standpoint. I even thought, "I should give this racing thing a shot." Then, the real reason I don't race woke me from my fantasy. I simply don't have the time or the money to dedicate a week to when the whole thing (or a significant portion thereof) might be a washout. I submit that the cost in both time and money is what keeps the droves of glider pilots at their home airports, not safety. That may convince people to stop racing but I doubt it impacts their decision on whether or not to start. Sorry for the thread drift.

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

Really, and a hard deck would make them come? If safety is a concern for some folks they should set their own minimums and participate. No one forces anyone to take risks. During one National contest I withdrew because I was not willing to break my own minimums. Let's be real here.

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 7:48:26 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 9:51:44 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

But those are preselected as the ones who have accepted the risk. Ask the ones who don't fly contests why they don't.

Really, and a hard deck would make them come? If safety is a concern for some folks they should set their own minimums and participate. No one forces anyone to take risks. During one National contest I withdrew because I was not willing to break my own minimums. Let's be real here.

I completely agree
Well said
UH