$75,000 2-33

Hi Kirk -

I am onboard with most of your points.

I do find that the 2-33 provokes either nostalgic reminiscences of those halcyon days or pure hatred.

I did a Flight Review with one of the most accomplished instructors/pilots I know - of all his choices picked the 2-33 as it was "the worst thing I fly" on a gnarly windy bumpy day. He hates the 2-33 and yet in addition to being able to fly the heck out of it, mumbling the whole time unprintable things (I'm ex-navy so I'm ok, no therapy needed) he did begrudgingly admit that it does well teaching rudder coordination, weak lift exploitation and "putting the aircraft where you want it/tough conditions" skills.

I've seen a student really master weak wave in tight spots at 1-2 kts of lift, balancing on the head of a pin, dealing with Sugarbush rotor and small margins in a 2-33. I've seen students mastering the slip, no-spoiler landings and other "stick and rudder" skills very quickly in 2-33s.

I saw the airframe of one where the pilot ran into a bollard - saw it in the shop at K&L before it was fixed. As an ex-accident investigator I'm pretty sure if that student pilot had run into that bollard with a glass ship the outcome would have been much worse - I understand she was basically ok. There are other examples of the cage/tube frame protecting the occupants.

Can other gliders do this stuff - sure. Can they do other things better - absolutely.

The "cheap" thing is simply that - if a club or operation can't afford newer glass ships as trainers the 2-33 did/does fill a niche. They taught many pilots to fly.

Just like in the power world - how do you entice a prospective student who has a nice car/boat/airplane with a 2-33, worse if the condition is less than average? Could be airworthy but cosmetically is a train wreck. Absolutely valid point. Years ago I instructed at a power school, same old story, guy pulls in, nice car, I sell him an intro lesson, we go out to that ratty, mismatched paint with broken plastic panels on the interior with a panel that made Lindbergh's look modern - no surprise - no go. Probably bought a boat. The owner of said school complained constantly about revenue but wouldn't spend a dime. Another reason that GA is in the sorry state it's in.

Counter to that - pull into a flight school that is fancy and has brand new Cirrus SR22s at $350 per hour with an instructor at $110 per hour. Not going to swell our ranks of pilots with that and the data proves it.

The Blaniks (L-23) were a really nice mix of good things too and many folks I knew loved to teach in them.

We are transitioning our fleet to more modern glass ships over time. The 2-33 maybe a thing if the past very soon. Still a place for it for a while here.

Not attempting to change anyone's mind here. I solo a number of students including teens in 2-33s so I, as well as others I highly respect clearly feel ok about that. As son of flubber pointed out - our students progress nicely up the fleet and do pretty ok. I have no hesitation starting someone in a PW-6 either.

As a power/glider/Part 135/91 instructor I've given instruction in a lot of different aircraft, it's really all about the student and how they are taught. Given enough money I could teach primary in a jet or more fun and reasonably in a 2-33/J-3.

Regards, Tom

As March Madness begins I'll be focusing my efforts elsewhere for a while - see you all after the final four is done. :-)

Ever see any long winded threads with people on either side of the aisle debating the merits of an ASK21 with so many hating it with all their being? Of course not. That's because the K21 is what a standard training sailplane should be (in this century). 100k is cheap compared to the revenue lost and membership lost from US clubs and commercial operators forcing the old spam can on the unsuspecting public.

On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 6:15:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Ever see any long winded threads with people on either side of the aisle debating the merits of an ASK21 with so many hating it with all their being? Of course not. That's because the K21 is what a standard training sailplane should be (in this century). 100k is cheap compared to the revenue lost and membership lost from US clubs and commercial operators forcing the old spam can on the unsuspecting public.

I don't know who you are or what your affiliations and experience are but I can tell you that my experiences differ a lot from your statements.
Have you written the check for an ASK-21 or are your committing other people's money?
I can toss this rock because I have written the check.
When someone steps onto the airport to try out our sport it is not the gliders that make the difference, it's the people flying the gliders. That is what captures them and that is what keeps them.
Our club does primary training in 2-33's. First single seater is a 1-26. Members also progress to 1-34 and ASK-21. The economics allow us to have many families and young people flying. I'm sure that would not be the case without our fleet mix.
UH

The argument regarding flying a ratty 2-33 or flying a new glass ship is a fallacious one, it depends who you want to attract. If your after moneyed folks then yes the bells n whistles of a glass ship is whats needed. But if your after the younger less wealthy populus than its an issue of finances not finish.

When I was a teenager Soaring in the club context was affordable, it is not today. Neither is GA. In fact soaring is about equal to powered flight cost wise. I could mow lawns during the week and be able to fly a 2-22 multiple times on the weekend on what I made pushing that lawn mower. There isn't a single glass based club running today that can make that happen. Kick away at the schweizers all you want, the 2-33 then transition to 1-26 is still the only affordable way to get into soaring for the average teen or working adult. When that dissapears, then say goodbye to any chance of growth within soaring except for the wealthy.

On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 6:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I could mow lawns during the week and be able to fly a 2-22 multiple times on the weekend on what I made pushing that lawn mower. There isn't a single glass based club running today that can make that happen.

You're right that times have changed. Kids don't fly on their grass cutting wages anymore, but here are some soaring clubs in the USA that have youth flying in glass trainers. Some of these programs combine 'line crew service' with flight lessons. In some cases these young pilots cut grass.

http://sugarbushsoaring.com/2017-fefy-day
http://sugarbushsoaring.com/doc/FEFY-Brochure.pdf

http://harrishillsoaring.org/junior-program-details/

https://www.soartruckee.org/youth-soaring.html

http://www.tidewatersoaring.org/scholarships.html

On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 7:03:30 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 6:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I could mow lawns during the week and be able to fly a 2-22 multiple times on the weekend on what I made pushing that lawn mower. There isn't a single glass based club running today that can make that happen.

You're right that times have changed. Kids don't fly on their grass cutting wages anymore, but here are some soaring clubs in the USA that have youth flying in glass trainers. Some of these programs combine 'line crew service' with flight lessons. In some cases these young pilots cut grass.

http://sugarbushsoaring.com/2017-fefy-day
http://sugarbushsoaring.com/doc/FEFY-Brochure.pdf

http://harrishillsoaring.org/junior-program-details/

https://www.soartruckee.org/youth-soaring.html

http://www.tidewatersoaring.org/scholarships.html
Harris Hill
Maybe wrong but I thought Sugarbush has a K&L 2-33 rebuild and a K&L rebuild 1-26. I know there are some pro Schweitzer folks up there. Your other examples of youth soaring programs are also heavy with Elmira iron.
'HHSC owns and operates 3 SGS2-33’s, numbers 1, 2, and 3. We rely on them as our primary training aircraft for new students and transitioning power pilots.'
Truckee's fleet:
Ride Glider 1 - Schweitzer SGS 2-32

Ride Glider 2 - Schweitzer SGS 2-32

Training/Rider Glider 1 - Schweitzer SGS 2-33

Training/Ride Glider 2 - Schweitzer SGS 2-33
TSS currently owns:
Schweizer 2-33A training glider
Blanik L-23 dual-place sailplane
PZL Swidnik PW-6 dual-place sailplane
Schweizer 1-26D single-place glider
PZL Bielsko PW-5 single-place sailplane.

I taught one student in a 2-33 because it was my bright idea to buy it to supplement our G1103 Acro. I hated the back seat, but it did teach me to slip to land. So far that skill set has saved me from my prior bad decisions in the pattern, twice. It may be a flying barn door, but it has a few things to teach. Not enough to bring 75K though.

SF

I concur with Tom that a mix of re-manufactured SGS gliders and glass ships is ideal.

Where that is not possible, good condition SGS seems to work.

But POS SGS are accidents waiting to happen and they make a bad impression in the meantime.

On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 7:51:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:

I thought Sugarbush has a K&L 2-33 rebuild and a K&L rebuild 1-26.

There is only one 2-33, so students also fly PW-6 (two) and ASK-21 (one). They progress to the Grob G102 after PPL. All tourist rides happen in PW-6 or ASK-21. The K&L rebuilds are beautiful, students love them, and they get really excited when they step up to the pristine 1-26.

'HHSC owns and operates 3 SGS 2-33’s, numbers 1, 2, and 3. We rely on them as our primary training aircraft for new students and transitioning power pilots.'

HHSC also has a club ASK-21. I flew a field check in it.


Truckee's fleet:
Ride Glider 1 - Schweitzer SGS 2-32
Ride Glider 2 - Schweitzer SGS 2-32
Training/Rider Glider 1 - Schweitzer SGS 2-33
Training/Ride Glider 2 - Schweitzer SGS 2-33

Right you are. I thought I saw a ASK-21 on their website.

TSS currently owns:
Schweizer 2-33A training glider
Blanik L-23 dual-place sailplane
PZL Swidnik PW-6 dual-place sailplane
Schweizer 1-26D single-place glider
PZL Bielsko PW-5 single-place sailplane.

I stand corrected on the glass 2 place, but the L-23 is an obvious step up from the 2-33.

I agree: higher-performance training gliders are much better. I still recall when our first one arrived: in addition to the big performance boost, long wings; plush interior nicely finished off; effective dive brakes; and a real door and window for the rear cockpit.

Yes, our first 2-33 was a HUGE step up from the crude 2-22s I trained and soloed in back in the mid 60s.

I've spent the past few months in UH's shop helping refinish my ASW 24. It's beautiful again, but it was a LOT of work. I shared quarters part of the time with a Valley Soaring Club group rejuvenating one of their 2-33s. Neither project is easy, but the far lower hours and relatively modest skills required to make the 2-33 look brand new despite it being tied out during the soaring season are another reason to keep these ships in the mix.

Chip Bearden

.....the far lower hours and relatively modest skills required to make the 2-33 look brand new despite it being tied out during the soaring season are another reason to keep these ships in the mix.

Chip Bearden

I soloed and earned my Private and Commercial Pilot ratings in 2-33s, so I have lots of good feelings for old Tubby the Trainer. Nobody in this thread seems ready to admit it, but the thing is fun to fly. Stress free as long as you stay close to home, climbs well in thermals, front seat is comfy, and visibility is excellent.

And then there's the back seat. When I got our club's permission to carry a passenger, I moved to the rear perch to allow the visitor to have a better view. One of my first riders was a young woman with long, flowing hair. Shortly after takeoff, the wind from the air vent on the panel spread her lovely locks all over the cockpit, cutting off my view of, among other things, the tow plane. I passed her my hat and she tucked her hair in it; problem solved and lesson learned. But what my old friend Don Turner observed about flying the 2-33 from the back seat is true wisdom. "Although it is very uncomfortable," he said, "you can't see anything."