$75,000 2-33

maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 16.44.02 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders.

Send me a link to your club website? I'd like to see what you have for equipment, membership, cost structure.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Le lundi 12 mars 2018 15:55:51 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*:
maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 16.44.02 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders.

Send me a link to your club website? I'd like to see what you have for equipment, membership, cost structure.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Same style and price level for us:
2x ASK21
2x DuoDiscus
2x LS4
2x LS8-18

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 8:26:25 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 15:55:51 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*:
maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 16.44.02 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders.

Send me a link to your club website? I'd like to see what you have for equipment, membership, cost structure.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Same style and price level for us:
2x ASK21
2x DuoDiscus
2x LS4
2x LS8-18

What club where and how to join?

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 08:43:36 -0700 (PDT), "Jonathan St. Cloud"
wrote:

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 8:26:25 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 15:55:51 UTC+1, krasw a écrit*:
maanantai 12. maaliskuuta 2018 16.44.02 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 10:22:12 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
So what's the story here? You are richest country in the world and insist on flying crappiest, oldest, cheapest training gliders known to earth. Please shine some light for us, training in poor countries with modern german gliders.

Send me a link to your club website? I'd like to see what you have for equipment, membership, cost structure.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Same style and price level for us:
2x ASK21
2x DuoDiscus
2x LS4
2x LS8-18

What club where and how to join?


ASK-21
Ka-8b
Valentin Mistral B
DG-300
ASW-24
ASW-27
Duo Discus
Dimona motorglider

$600 per year for the gliders, including ALL fees for winch launching.
Unlimited time.

Not unusual for Germany, I'd like to add.

What club where and how to join? We need more clubs like this.

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 7:55:51 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:


ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Le lundi 12 mars 2018 16:43:16 UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud a écritÂ*:
What club where and how to join? We need more clubs like this.

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 7:55:51 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:


ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per year and you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30 USD/hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Bex (LSGB), Western Switzerland. Command of French language would help.
http://www.lesmartinets.org

At 16:04 12 March 2018, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le lundi 12 mars 2018 16:43:16 UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud a
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0=
:
What club where and how to join? We need more clubs like
this.=20
=20
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 7:55:51 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
=20
=20
ASK21, Duo, Junior, LS1-f, 2*LS8, D2b, V2c. Appr. 1500 USD per
year
and=
you can fly everything as much as you can, or hourly rate of up to 30
USD/=
hr plus 300 USD fixed per year.

Bex (LSGB), Western Switzerland. Command of French language
would help.
http://www.lesmartinets.org


and how much of your fleet,equipment, clubhouse, was funded by the
Swiss Lottery or other sources other than club members?

Maybe 5%.
We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not bad.
Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been long gone.
I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be considered as the "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+ years ago. Who wants to dwelve on the middle ages?!

Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so does any modern glider.

You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling membership. And yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn the real thing... to go to hell.

So help us understand the economics of your operation. In round figures, you're sitting on about $1M (USD) worth of aircraft when I include our two towplanes. Maybe a little more or a little less depending on how you acquired the Duos and K-21s (used vs new) as well as the Maule, but close enough..

Insurance alone on this would run about $25K. Engine rebuild fund and refinish fund another $10K/year or something like that. Maintenance at least $5K assuming the ships are already in good condition. So,let's assume that operating costs for the fleet alone are in the neighborhood of $50K/year when we throw in a bunch of other stuff like supplies, licensing, hangar rent, etc.. That would be something like $1000/member based on 50 members with no money going into a capital fund (i.e. to acquire aircraft). Given the clubs total hours at around 1200 per the Website (including a fair amount of rides), that means that the average pilot logs a bit over 20 hours per year (though given a usual mix in a club, I'm sure there are a small few who account for a significant percentage).

Even assuming you accumulated $1M worth of ships over 25 years, that would mean averaging another $40k or so going to the capital fund each year on average.

Show me where I went wrong with the math.

Erik Mann

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 3:04:47 PM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Maybe 5%.
We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not bad.
Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been long gone.
I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be considered as the "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+ years ago. Who wants to dwelve on the middle ages?!

Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so does any modern glider.

You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling membership. And yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn the real thing... to go to hell.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:06:14 -0700 (PDT), Papa3
wrote:

So help us understand the economics of your operation. In round figures, you're sitting on about $1M (USD) worth of aircraft when I include our two towplanes. Maybe a little more or a little less depending on how you acquired the Duos and K-21s (used vs new) as well as the Maule, but close enough.

Insurance alone on this would run about $25K. Engine rebuild fund and refinish fund another $10K/year or something like that. Maintenance at least $5K assuming the ships are already in good condition. So,let's assume that operating costs for the fleet alone are in the neighborhood of $50K/year when we throw in a bunch of other stuff like supplies, licensing, hangar rent, etc.. That would be something like $1000/member based on 50 members with no money going into a capital fund (i.e. to acquire aircraft). Given the clubs total hours at around 1200 per the Website (including a fair amount of rides), that means that the average pilot logs a bit over 20 hours per year (though given a usual mix in a club, I'm sure there are a small few who account for a significant percentage).

Even assuming you accumulated $1M worth of ships over 25 years, that would mean averaging another $40k or so going to the capital fund each year on average.

Show me where I went wrong with the math.


Your numbers are wrong.
TW is flying in Switzerland, so his numbers are different from mine



But let me tell you some numbers of my club:
www.djk-landau.de

ASK-21
Ka-8b
Valentin Mistral C
DG-300
ASW-24
ASW-27
Duo Dicus XL

Dimona motorglider
Robin DR-300 Remorqeur tow plane.


These are our prices:
https://www.djk-landau.de/fliegen/kosten/


EUR 350 per year, including ALL flying time and ALL winch launches.
Flat rate. Needs to be payed by everone, even by private owners who
never fly a club glider.

Annual fee:
EUR 160 adult
EUR 80 if younger than 21
EUR 120 if older than 21 but without income (students)
EUR 40 for non-active members

That's all.

85 active members, 120 non active members.
Total income of the glider operation about 46.000 (from now on all
prices in Euro EUR).

Numbers from 2017 (only club gliders):
1.600 launches per year, 1.400 of them winch launches


Major expenditures for the glider fleet:
Insurance: 14.000 (Kasko insurance for 21, Duo, Dimona, ASW-27)

Maintenance: 1.500 (only spare parts, we do all the maintenance by
ourselves)

Winch: 12.000 (fuel, replacement cables,...)


Motorglider and tow plane are priced that they pay themselves.

In Germany nearly all clubs, including mine, are doing 90% of their
launches with the winch.

Our DR-300 tow plane has got a Lycoming engine with a TBO of 2.000 hrs
and an overhaul cost of 30.000.
But it only does 80 hrs per year (600 launches) - so we are talking
about an engine rebuilt fund of only 2.000 per year.



All in all we make a profit of about 18.000 per year, which we
currently use to repay the loans for the Duo and the new EUR 250.000
hangar whe built five years ago.

We own our airfield and paid 130.000 DM for it in 1999.




One thing you need to know:
The clubs in Europe never simply buy a new glider from scratch, but
they are usually able to sell their current glider for good money
before it gets old, so the step from a Ka-7 to ASK-13 50 years ago was
about 15.000 (D-mark in these days), from ASK-13 to ASK-21 30 years
ago 55.000, and so on.

Therefore there might be a huge value of the glider fleet on paper,
but a big part of it was paid by selling older gliders.

Nearly all clubs in Germany, Austria (both countries where gliding is
cheap compared to other parts of the world) don't pay any hangar rent
- all the hangars were built (and are owned) by the clubs.

Nearly any club owns a club house which makes a stay on the airfield
cheap and hels a lot to create comradeship.#

No paid line runners, no paid aircraft maintenace guys, no paid tow
pilots, no paid tower crews.


Did this posting answer your questions?



Cheers
Andreas