$75,000 2-33

Le lundi 12 mars 2018 21:06:16 UTC+1, Papa3 a écritÂ*:
So help us understand the economics of your operation. In round figures, you're sitting on about $1M (USD) worth of aircraft when I include our two towplanes. Maybe a little more or a little less depending on how you acquired the Duos and K-21s (used vs new) as well as the Maule, but close enough.

Operation of a glider (all included) comes to about $5000 in fixed cost per year.
We spend something like $30k in various rents. In total, the soaring operation is about $70k in fixed costs p.a.
Members pay an annual fee of $650, regardless wether they fly their own glider (about 15 owners) or club gliders.
Those flying club glider either buy a slot of 30 h for $700, or 70 h for $1400. These slots can't be brought into the following year. Very few actually pay by the hour.
We do quite a number of introductory flights, which generate some revenue.
Tugs are self-financing, and rates are $5-7 per minute. Tug pilots are not paid.

No-one gets paid any money. Every member is required to put in 4-5 days per year for ground operation or maintainance. Instructors are excempted as they put in an average of 10 days riding the back seat.

The fleets was built up over a span of 50 years, so incrementals were small (and covered by net cashflow). "What's wrong with a 2-33" - guys don't exist in our club, or don't exist anymore. The last financially significant switch (changing 2 Pilatus B4 for 2 Discus) was done 15 years ago, and 5 years ago the Discus were switched for LS8-18.

At 19:04 12 March 2018, Tango Whisky wrote:
Maybe 5%.
We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not
bad.
Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been
long gone.
I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be
considered as
t=
he "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+
years
ago.=
Who wants to dwell on the middle ages?!

Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so
does any modern glider.

You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling
membership. And
=
yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club
managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell
those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn
the real thing... to go to hell.


OK, how many of you USA RAS posters have belonged to a European
club? There is a big difference between Europe and the USA. In
European clubs ALL members are expected to WORK (no
exceptions) On a flying day, one had to be at the airport by 9 AM
(in my club in Germany) to help unpack the hangar and assemble
whatever was kept in trailers. Once the gliders were ready, there
was a meeting to assign who got to fly what and when. Private
owners were not exempt. If you weren't flying, you were expected
to help wherever you could. After your flight as well. Nobody was
allowed to leave until the gliders had all been put away, and the
hangar doors were closed.

In the winter there was maintenance work to be done every week in
the evening. The club also took on subcontract work making
electrical cables for a local electronics firm. At the end of the winter
work season, all of the man hours were added up and divided by the
number of members in the club. If the number of hours one put in
was at the average or above, one got a "thank you". If one's hours
were below average, one received a bill to pay cash for the shortfall
in hours not worked.

This system worked to counter the problem that most USA clubs
have where only a few dedicated folks do all of the work, while the
rest can't seem to be bothered to help. It seems that most US
glider pilots want a country club atmosphere where they can reserve
a take-off time, show up at the last minute with everything already
set up for them, go fly, and then leave right after landing so that
someone else can put everything away. This may be fine for a
commercial operation, but USA pilots don't want to pay the
commercial operation's higher fees (due to providing all of these
services). The USA pilots want the lower club rates without having
to put the work in themselves.

Most European clubs also started many years ago, so what you see
now are the fruits of many years of dedicated teamwork. The
founders of my old club in Germany went door to door asking for
donations so they could build their first primary glider back in the
early 1950's. It's sort of like the old ant vs grasshopper fable. The
USA grasshoppers are jealous of what the European ants have built
up over many years of working together. The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

Well said, Michael.


On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 20:39:06 +0000, Michael Opitz
wrote

At 19:04 12 March 2018, Tango Whisky wrote:
Maybe 5%.
We are about 50 members, and the inflow of new members is not
bad.
Now, if we had trash bins from Schweizer on display, we'd been
long gone.
I've soloed and lateron instructed in Ka7's (which could be
considered as
t=
he "European 2-33", just being 30 years ahead), but that was 30+
years
ago.=
Who wants to dwell on the middle ages?!

Certainly a Ka7 or your local variety teaches you how to fly, but so
does any modern glider.

You can't have 2-33 in a club AND complain about dwindling
membership. And
=
yes - even in Europe we had these things, but must club
managements managed to build up the switch over time. And tell
those folks who claim that dinosaur gliders are the best way to learn
the real thing... to go to hell.


OK, how many of you USA RAS posters have belonged to a European
club? There is a big difference between Europe and the USA. In
European clubs ALL members are expected to WORK (no
exceptions) On a flying day, one had to be at the airport by 9 AM
(in my club in Germany) to help unpack the hangar and assemble
whatever was kept in trailers. Once the gliders were ready, there
was a meeting to assign who got to fly what and when. Private
owners were not exempt. If you weren't flying, you were expected
to help wherever you could. After your flight as well. Nobody was
allowed to leave until the gliders had all been put away, and the
hangar doors were closed.

In the winter there was maintenance work to be done every week in
the evening. The club also took on subcontract work making
electrical cables for a local electronics firm. At the end of the winter
work season, all of the man hours were added up and divided by the
number of members in the club. If the number of hours one put in
was at the average or above, one got a "thank you". If one's hours
were below average, one received a bill to pay cash for the shortfall
in hours not worked.

This system worked to counter the problem that most USA clubs
have where only a few dedicated folks do all of the work, while the
rest can't seem to be bothered to help. It seems that most US
glider pilots want a country club atmosphere where they can reserve
a take-off time, show up at the last minute with everything already
set up for them, go fly, and then leave right after landing so that
someone else can put everything away. This may be fine for a
commercial operation, but USA pilots don't want to pay the
commercial operation's higher fees (due to providing all of these
services). The USA pilots want the lower club rates without having
to put the work in themselves.

Most European clubs also started many years ago, so what you see
now are the fruits of many years of dedicated teamwork. The
founders of my old club in Germany went door to door asking for
donations so they could build their first primary glider back in the
early 1950's. It's sort of like the old ant vs grasshopper fable. The
USA grasshoppers are jealous of what the European ants have built
up over many years of working together. The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:45:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

Hey Mike,

I asked the question because I wanted to get these sorts of responses. Having flown extensively in UK and Europe, it's exactly the above that leaps out. The clubs do all of their own work and have the facilities required to do that work (shops and hangars). Being one of the guys who is becoming burned out (two full refinish projects in the last 5 years), it's that community that's missing in many clubs in the US (though not all).

One related thing though is that issue of owning the airfield. I noted the large club that bought their field for 190,000 DM in 1999 as mentioned by Andreas. If we tried to buy our airfield 20 years ago, the asking price was $5,000,000 (five million) and today it's north of $9,000,000. Because of land use policies in the US, there is little separation between City/Town and "country", so anything within 100 miles of a major population center is going to be incredibly expensive.

It's been my observation that most of the more successful clubs (again with some exceptions) have ownership of the airport. One of the big problems (as your club knows quite acutely) is that being able to afford an airport in the US anywhere near a major population center is a challenge. So, you either end up "out in the boondocks" (for our EU friends, that means a 2 hour to 3 hour drive from where people live) or you end up coexisting on a busy public use airport with a lot of issues (such as not being able to winch launch).

It's not that Americans are (all) stupid or stubborn, but the economics are fundamentally different. And yeah, some of us are incredibly stupid and stubborn.

Erik Mann

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:45:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:


OK, how many of you USA RAS posters have belonged to a European
club? There is a big difference between Europe and the USA. In
European clubs ALL members are expected to WORK (no
exceptions) On a flying day, one had to be at the airport by 9 AM
(in my club in Germany) to help unpack the hangar and assemble
whatever was kept in trailers. Once the gliders were ready, there
was a meeting to assign who got to fly what and when. Private
owners were not exempt. If you weren't flying, you were expected
to help wherever you could. After your flight as well. Nobody was
allowed to leave until the gliders had all been put away, and the
hangar doors were closed.

In the winter there was maintenance work to be done every week in
the evening. The club also took on subcontract work making
electrical cables for a local electronics firm. At the end of the winter
work season, all of the man hours were added up and divided by the
number of members in the club. If the number of hours one put in
was at the average or above, one got a "thank you". If one's hours
were below average, one received a bill to pay cash for the shortfall
in hours not worked.

This system worked to counter the problem that most USA clubs
have where only a few dedicated folks do all of the work, while the
rest can't seem to be bothered to help. It seems that most US
glider pilots want a country club atmosphere where they can reserve
a take-off time, show up at the last minute with everything already
set up for them, go fly, and then leave right after landing so that
someone else can put everything away. This may be fine for a
commercial operation, but USA pilots don't want to pay the
commercial operation's higher fees (due to providing all of these
services). The USA pilots want the lower club rates without having
to put the work in themselves.

Most European clubs also started many years ago, so what you see
now are the fruits of many years of dedicated teamwork. The
founders of my old club in Germany went door to door asking for
donations so they could build their first primary glider back in the
early 1950's. It's sort of like the old ant vs grasshopper fable. The
USA grasshoppers are jealous of what the European ants have built
up over many years of working together. The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

Hello Michael,

you are describing almost to the T the procedures in my club in Germany! One exception was that we allowed members to buy-out the 'Winterarbeit', if they wanted to or had only two left hands with thumbs on them! That generated enough funds to contract out certain jobs like re-roofing the hangar, etc..
As for the general membership age: in Germany, the clubs recruit out of the local high-schools - in the US out of the local retirement homes!

A funny story from a few years ago involving one of the few high-school aged kids we had: his mom dropped him off in the morning before his lesson and asked me when she could pick him back up. I told her that junior should call her after he helped washing, waxing and putting away the gliders, to which she replied with a mix of astonishment and horror: 'You mean my son has to work here? Why am I paying monthly dues?' In her mind, learning to fly gliders was like scheduling a lesson with the tennis- or golf-pro, although we briefed her on that when she signed junior up. Maybe we need to do a better job at that but in general, I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation. This may be due to the chicken and egg problem: why would I like to hang out at the airport with a bunch of geezers if there are no peer-group around? Successful clubs like Harris Hill or Caesar Creek all have a youth group and a club-house - which as mentioned above - are the nucleus for growing a group. Randomly pick a web-site of a German club and look for the tab 'Jugendgruppe' (Youth group). You will see a good number of 14-21 year old fully integrated into or even running the entire operation!

Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general. In Germany, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she joins the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick from. In the US, if you happen to have a kid who solos during high-school, he/she is most likely lost to the sport since there is no soaring operation within easy reach of the college town. My son at NAU in Flagstaff, AZ is the best example. One can only hope that this person comes back to soaring at a later time in life.
Getting off the soap-box now - have I contributed enough to thread-drift? ;-)

Uli
'AS'