$75,000 2-33

Many contributors argue that everything should be cheap, and even cheaper is better, because low costs means more new pilots. Yet no evidence of this causality is available. We got to stop pretend that this is cheap hobby, it is not. But at the same time it is not expensive compared to many other activities. Gliding is in the reach most educated/working adults, they can afford it IF THEY WANT. I know clubs that offered introductory flights at ridiculously low price to attract new pilots. Nobody came, they thought that "it probably is not much fun because it is so cheap". Then they implemented hefty price increase and voila, flights were booked full. Price is the product?

I don't get it. How do clubs leverage selling older two seaters for a good price to fund new ones if everyone is doing it? If everyone is on the upgrade path who would pay a high price for ASK-13 to allow the purchase of ASK-21? And where are they now, are there low budget Euro clubs using old stuff?

Le mardi 13 mars 2018 13:28:12 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
I don't get it. How do clubs leverage selling older two seaters for a good price to fund new ones if everyone is doing it? If everyone is on the upgrade path who would pay a high price for ASK-13 to allow the purchase of ASK-21? And where are they now, are there low budget Euro clubs using old stuff?

There is a time window where you can do this. Getting rid of a Ka7 for an ASK13 was a good thing in the seventies, and then you would swap them maybe 15 years later for an ASK21. At that time, in main two-seater in France (the Bijave) had been grounded, so there was a high demand in France for ASK13's.

If you just kept on flying the Ka7 throughout the ninties, you just missed the train (and there are still a lot of clubs in Europe who fly old fleets).. One reason for that is that in order to keep your fleet at an attractive level, you do need some cashflow, and this is tricky when your club is too small, and/or mainly consists of these old guys who think that there is no reason to incrementally change to a decent fleets.

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 05:28:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I don't get it. How do clubs leverage selling older two seaters for a good price to fund new ones if everyone is doing it? If everyone is on the upgrade path who would pay a high price for ASK-13 to allow the purchase of ASK-21? And where are they now, are there low budget Euro clubs using old stuff?

Key factor is to sell the older glider early as long as it's still
valuable and the successor still halfways cheap. The difference gets
bigger the longer ypou wait to sell the older glider.

There are still many clubs in Europe that are using older trainers
like ASK-13 or Puchacz, nearly all of them from the former Eastern
Block where private gliding clubs could only start after 1990.

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 3:55:41 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
Many contributors argue that everything should be cheap, and even cheaper is better, because low costs means more new pilots. Yet no evidence of this causality is available. We got to stop pretend that this is cheap hobby, it is not. But at the same time it is not expensive compared to many other activities. Gliding is in the reach most educated/working adults, they can afford it IF THEY WANT. I know clubs that offered introductory flights at ridiculously low price to attract new pilots. Nobody came, they thought that "it probably is not much fun because it is so cheap". Then they implemented hefty price increase and voila, flights were booked full. Price is the product?

you want the answer why we still use them?

•because they are inexpensive to purchase, fly, and own
•there's a ****load of them here
•it's fun to hang out the rear window while a student flies
•we americans are a proud race, and they are american gliders (ok no but really, people here just like them) im intensely displeased at the lack of options when it comes to american made options.
•students beat on aircraft, and 2-33's are robust. (how many times has your club had to repair the nosewheel of a k-21?)

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 06:48:13 -0700 (PDT), ND
wrote:

and 2-33's are robust. (how many times has your club had to repair the nosewheel of a k-21?)

Since 1986 when we purchased our ASK-21 (which now as 7.000 hrs):
Never.

Maybe it's training, maybe it's pilots.
When I have been checked out in a -21, Grob twin, etc., (at several US locations, HHSC was one) once they see my hours in various single seat glass, there is no discussion of the ship (TO, stall, handling, etc.).
The ONLY real concern was, "minimum energy landing, tail first......we HATE fixing the nose wheel!".

As to the rest of this thread, I'm just reading, not commenting. Everyone has their idea, this thread likely won't change anything.
Yes, I started in, and trained others in, the 2-33, but with steam gauges, not a glass panel.
Carry on.

Le mardi 13 mars 2018 14:48:15 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 3:55:41 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
Many contributors argue that everything should be cheap, and even cheaper is better, because low costs means more new pilots. Yet no evidence of this causality is available. We got to stop pretend that this is cheap hobby, it is not. But at the same time it is not expensive compared to many other activities. Gliding is in the reach most educated/working adults, they can afford it IF THEY WANT. I know clubs that offered introductory flights at ridiculously low price to attract new pilots. Nobody came, they thought that "it probably is not much fun because it is so cheap". Then they implemented hefty price increase and voila, flights were booked full. Price is the product?

you want the answer why we still use them?

•because they are inexpensive to purchase, fly, and own
•there's a ****load of them here
•it's fun to hang out the rear window while a student flies
•we americans are a proud race, and they are american gliders (ok no but really, people here just like them) im intensely displeased at the lack of options when it comes to american made options.
•students beat on aircraft, and 2-33's are robust. (how many times has your club had to repair the nosewheel of a k-21?)

I have no problem with you having this opinion. Just don't complain about dwindling membership, or average ages of members being somewhere north of 60....

As for inexpensive... if having 2-33's in your fleet makes that you can't attract sufficient new (and young!) members, that's probably the most expensive way of flying in the long run.

As for sturdiness - we never had a collapsed nose wheel on the ASK21.

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 10:46:07 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mardi 13 mars 2018 14:48:15 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 3:55:41 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
Many contributors argue that everything should be cheap, and even cheaper is better, because low costs means more new pilots. Yet no evidence of this causality is available. We got to stop pretend that this is cheap hobby, it is not. But at the same time it is not expensive compared to many other activities. Gliding is in the reach most educated/working adults, they can afford it IF THEY WANT. I know clubs that offered introductory flights at ridiculously low price to attract new pilots. Nobody came, they thought that "it probably is not much fun because it is so cheap". Then they implemented hefty price increase and voila, flights were booked full. Price is the product?

you want the answer why we still use them?

•because they are inexpensive to purchase, fly, and own
•there's a ****load of them here
•it's fun to hang out the rear window while a student flies
•we americans are a proud race, and they are american gliders (ok no but really, people here just like them) im intensely displeased at the lack of options when it comes to american made options.
•students beat on aircraft, and 2-33's are robust. (how many times has your club had to repair the nosewheel of a k-21?)

I have no problem with you having this opinion. Just don't complain about dwindling membership, or average ages of members being somewhere north of 60...

As for inexpensive... if having 2-33's in your fleet makes that you can't attract sufficient new (and young!) members, that's probably the most expensive way of flying in the long run.

As for sturdiness - we never had a collapsed nose wheel on the ASK21.

ND's opinion comes from growing out of the largest and most active junior program in the US.
They have no problem attracting and keeping young people.
Those kids don't know that they are not having fun learning in 2-33's.
I can say the same for our club.
I have been close to about a dozen K-21's, including 2 in our club. Of those, more than half have had the nose wheel broken(none in our club while we've had them).
We also use our '21's for contest flying as part of our advanced training.
Modernizing the fleet should be a part of a long term plan, but it takes time to build the equity needed to do so. Our 2-33's paid for getting started on our first '21.
UH

Ok, so ASK 21 nose gear can indeed collapse (if you dive into ground at 30 degrees angle) and therefore 2-33 is better alternative. Got it.

IMHO ASK 21 is far from state of the art. It glides like a pig and is heavy on controls. It is 70's technology. There are more modern alternatives available.