The inadvisability of charging LiFePO4 batteries below 32F/0C (akabelow freezing)

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 9:51:23 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 8:29:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well, what immediately comes to mind is the confusion between LiFePO4 and Lithium Ion. Those are different chemistries. I used LiFePO4 and charged them over the winter months in NM (lots of zub-freezing nights) using the chargers supplied with the batteries without any problems. After a year of removing the batteries and taking them home to charge, I had the confidence to leave them installed in the glider, in the hangar, with the chargers connected and plugged in. Again, no problems with LiFePO4. YMMV.

Dan

On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 8:38:12 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
When researching a step up to LiFePO4, I stumbled across this tidbit at http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...w_temperatures

"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode during a sub-freezing charge. This is permanent and cannot be removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing."

Advancements are being made to charge Li-ion below freezing temperatures. Charging is indeed possible with most lithium-ion cells but only at very low currents. According to research papers, the allowable charge rate at –30°C (–22°F) is 0.02C. At this low current, the charge time would stretch to over 50 hours, a time that is deemed impractical. There are, however, specialty Li-ions that can charge down to –10°C (14°F) at a reduced rate."

The also applies to lithium battery in your phone/computer. If you should happen to leave it in a cold place, you might want to warm it up before charging.

There's no confusion between LiFePO4 and Lithium Ion because LiFePO4 IS a Lithium Ion battery. Lithium Ion is a generic term that includes all lithium chemistries.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...of_lithium_ion

There should not be, but unfortunately there is confusion, because of the loose use of the terminology. If it has lithium in it, it is a Lithium Ion battery, but beyond that there are big differences in chemistry and mechanical construction. The concern about sub zero charging has to do with plating on the anode, however each of these different battery chemistries use a different anode material. One might assume that with different anode material they would be more, or less, susceptible to the plating problem. I cannot find any scholarly paper that discusses LiFePo4 in particular, with respect to charging temps.

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 1:10:56 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

If it has lithium in it, it is a Lithium Ion battery...

Given the different charging/discharging *requirements* associated with "LiIon" vs "LiPo" vs "LFP", that's a very dangerous statement.

T8

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:30:38 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 1:10:56 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

If it has lithium in it, it is a Lithium Ion battery...

Given the different charging/discharging *requirements* associated with "LiIon" vs "LiPo" vs "LFP", that's a very dangerous statement.

T8

The truth is never dangerous, but ignorance is. What people need to do is get used to saying LiPo or LiCo, or LiMn or LiFePo4 (LFP for short). The danger is in ignorance that these are different batteries. You don't charge NiCads the same as SLA the same as flooded LA do you? Yet they are all batteries. The details matter. Even in your post you imply that LiIon is different than LFP. An LFP is a LiIon (it uses a lithium compounded anode or cathode, and ions to transport current). There is a wide variety of lithium based batteries just as there is a wide variety of carbon, nickel, and lead batteries. Treat them the same at your own peril - please educate yourself.

While I usually don't disagree with you, if you READ what Tango8 posted, he is saying the same thing as you.
"Lithium in the name does make it the same", as I read it.

Your thoughts?!

Yes, I am going from early (late '70's NiCads to more modern LiFe or LiOn/LiPo) rechargeables including LA of various flavors.

I have a bunch of cash tied up in chargers for various battery chemistries, mostly in RC use, but also for my main income.

Hey, hey find an issue with my read of Tango8's post, I am willing to learn, but I believe you read it wrong.

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 10:22:48 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
While I usually don't disagree with you, if you READ what Tango8 posted, he is saying the same thing as you.
"Lithium in the name does make it the same", as I read it.

Your thoughts?!

Yes, I am going from early (late '70's NiCads to more modern LiFe or LiOn/LiPo) rechargeables including LA of various flavors.

I have a bunch of cash tied up in chargers for various battery chemistries, mostly in RC use, but also for my main income.

Hey, hey find an issue with my read of Tango8's post, I am willing to learn, but I believe you read it wrong.

I don't believe it is dangerous to refer to Lithium Ion batteries as Lithium Ion batteries. But in T8s post he said it was, and further said '"LiIon" vs "LiPo" vs "LFP"' which implies that Lithium Ion batteries are a type of Lithium Ion batteries. The semantics matter. Had he quoted my post in context (the complete sentence was "If it has lithium in it, it is a Lithium Ion battery, but beyond that there are big differences in chemistry and mechanical construction.") perhaps he would have not thought what I said dangerous. You cannot charge a LiIon battery differently than an LFP, because an LFP IS a LiIon battery. LiIon includes all the different chemistries but the members of that group differ in their associated charge requirements.

It is much better to use language precisely when the result of a misunderstanding can be an explosion and fire. If you specify an LFP charger you should get want you want. If you specify a LiIon charger you have no idea what you are going to get.

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:15:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
... If you specify a LiIon charger you have no idea what you are going to get.

- not so in the real world. The lithium polymer (and similar) batteries that everybody now seems to have in their cellphone, laptop, etc etc, all have cells with a nominal voltage of 3.6 or 3.7, are universally referred to as "lithium ion", and can generally use any charger with that same label. (If charging one cell at a time - of course cells of unusual size or shape, and multi-cell packs, need special chargers.) A charger specific for LFP (cell voltage about 3.2) is NEVER labeled as "lithium ion".

I do have at least one charger (for small cylindrical cells) that has a switch so you can choose 3.2V or 3.7V. That's dangerous, so I've glued it on the 3.2V setting since for cylindrical cells I only use LFP, never "lithium ion". That charger is not labeled at all, only a brand name...

And that's still living dangerously, since I need to make sure not to put alkaline (1.5V) and NiMH (1.2V) cells in that charger, and not to put LFP cells in a device designed for 1.2-1.5V cells unless paired with "dummy batteries".

Modern life is way too complicated.

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:15:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 10:22:48 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
While I usually don't disagree with you, if you READ what Tango8 posted, he is saying the same thing as you.
"Lithium in the name does make it the same", as I read it.

Your thoughts?!

Yes, I am going from early (late '70's NiCads to more modern LiFe or LiOn/LiPo) rechargeables including LA of various flavors.

I have a bunch of cash tied up in chargers for various battery chemistries, mostly in RC use, but also for my main income.

Hey, hey find an issue with my read of Tango8's post, I am willing to learn, but I believe you read it wrong.

I don't believe it is dangerous to refer to Lithium Ion batteries as Lithium Ion batteries. But in T8s post he said it was, and further said '"LiIon" vs "LiPo" vs "LFP"' which implies that Lithium Ion batteries are a type of Lithium Ion batteries. The semantics matter. Had he quoted my post in context (the complete sentence was "If it has lithium in it, it is a Lithium Ion battery, but beyond that there are big differences in chemistry and mechanical construction.") perhaps he would have not thought what I said dangerous. You cannot charge a LiIon battery differently than an LFP, because an LFP IS a LiIon battery. LiIon includes all the different chemistries but the members of that group differ in their associated charge requirements.

It is much better to use language precisely when the result of a misunderstanding can be an explosion and fire. If you specify an LFP charger you should get want you want. If you specify a LiIon charger you have no idea what you are going to get.

Jon, you're clearly unfamiliar with the terminology as it is used out in the real world. There are many (millions) multi-mode chargers out there that use the terms as I have used them, "LiIon, LiPo, LFP". Semantics matter? Sure. Safety based on correctly matching charging cycles to chemistry matters more.

Here's a link to the instructions for a commercial charger that illustrates what I am talking about. They use the terms LiIo, and LiFe instead of LiIon and LFP.

http://www.ircha.org/sites/default/f...ntam%20BC6.pdf

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:15:26 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 10:22:48 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
While I usually don't disagree with you, if you READ what Tango8 posted, he is saying the same thing as you.
"Lithium in the name does make it the same", as I read it.

Your thoughts?!

Yes, I am going from early (late '70's NiCads to more modern LiFe or LiOn/LiPo) rechargeables including LA of various flavors.

I have a bunch of cash tied up in chargers for various battery chemistries, mostly in RC use, but also for my main income.

Hey, hey find an issue with my read of Tango8's post, I am willing to learn, but I believe you read it wrong.

I don't believe it is dangerous to refer to Lithium Ion batteries as Lithium Ion batteries. But in T8s post he said it was, and further said '"LiIon" vs "LiPo" vs "LFP"' which implies that Lithium Ion batteries are a type of Lithium Ion batteries. The semantics matter. Had he quoted my post in context (the complete sentence was "If it has lithium in it, it is a Lithium Ion battery, but beyond that there are big differences in chemistry and mechanical construction.") perhaps he would have not thought what I said dangerous. You cannot charge a LiIon battery differently than an LFP, because an LFP IS a LiIon battery. LiIon includes all the different chemistries but the members of that group differ in their associated charge requirements.

It is much better to use language precisely when the result of a misunderstanding can be an explosion and fire. If you specify an LFP charger you should get want you want. If you specify a LiIon charger you have no idea what you are going to get.

Jon, you're clearly unfamiliar with the terminology as it is used out in the real world. There are many (millions) multi-mode chargers out there that use the terms as I have used them, "LiIon, LiPo, LFP". Semantics matter? Sure. Safety based on correctly matching charging cycles to chemistry matters more.

Here's a link to the instructions for a commercial charger that illustrates what I am talking about. They use the terms LiIo, and LiFe instead of LiIon and LFP.

http://www.ircha.org/sites/default/f...ntam%20BC6.pdf

I am well aware of the loose and incorrect usage of terms, and it is what I am arguing against as potentially dangerous. As I said in my second post in this thread, "unfortunately there is confusion". What exactly is the voltage and chemistry of a LiIo, or LiIon, or Lithium battery? In the real world, Google "lithium ion battery" will correctly return hits on all types, not just lithium polymer, with recommended charging voltage of between 3.2 and several hundred volts. Even in the last few of posts we have the conflation of several chemistries. The news media is horribly guilty of this, from them we know that lithium batteries cause cars and aircraft to catch fire and burn, and hoverboards to self immolate. I have been told on this very forum that lithium ion batteries should not be used in gliders because they cause Boeing 787s and Chevy Volts and Samsung S7s to burn - never mind that those batteries are quite different than the ones we use.

If I have a charger than says "LiIo" or "lithium" charger on it, that tells me little or nothing about what battery I can charge with it. This is my point. "Correctly matching charing cycles to chemistry" can only be done if the specific chemistry or voltages required are stated. "Lithium ion" is the term used for the collection of chemistries using lithium anodes or cathodes. If that is not the correct term, then what is? And why is it "dangerous" to use the correct term? And if speaking in a context where the specific chemistry dangerously matters, shouldn't the specific term be used, rather than the general?

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 9:44:40 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:


The truth is never dangerous, ...

Well, the truth is RARELY dangerous. History is full of examples where the truth resulted in death.