Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: (Fred the Red Shirt)
Date: 7/18/2004 10:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Mellenthin) wrote in message
...
I was hoping you would have the common deceny not to remind me of it. I've
spent 60 years trying to forget it.




Arthur Kramer

Fact of life in war. I am not sure anyone could or should forget that,
even
when one relate ones experiences with putting bombs on target, dodging
enemy
fighters, and flying through flak. There is always another side to war
besides
the glory and I think we all should keep that in balance.


"War is at best barbarism... it's glory is all moonshine. It is only those
who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the
wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is
hell" -- William Techumseh Sherman


Having never fired a shot I trust and respect those who did.

--

FF



Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 19 Jul 2004 14:44:33 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.


Arthur Kramer

Lacking warriors you might find yourself today speaking German,
Japanese or Russian. Next year you might be doing some Quran study and
waiting for the call of muezzin.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/19/04 8:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 19 Jul 2004 14:44:33 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all
that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.


Arthur Kramer

Lacking warriors you might find yourself today speaking German,
Japanese or Russian. Next year you might be doing some Quran study and
waiting for the call of muezzin.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8
..

Wars are not won by warriors. They are won by kids barely out of their teens
who do what they were trained to dp. The "Warriors" just take credit for it
all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 19 Jul 2004 16:23:04 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Wars are not won by warriors. They are won by kids barely out of their teens
who do what they were trained to dp. The "Warriors" just take credit for it
all.


Arthur Kramer

You might consider picking up Stolen Valor by Burkitt at the local
library. He very effectively debunks the "nineteen" myth regarding the
average age of Vietnam combatants.

Give me an army of "kids barely out of their teens" and I'll give you
an effective war-fighting force in about four years, provided I've got
a cadre of senior NCOs and Officers with the mettle to do the job.

Norm Schwartzkopf, Chuck Horner, Tommy Franks, Colin Powell, Joe
Ralston, Ron Fogleman, and a litany of others fill the warrior
definition much better than the teen-ager one.

But, if wishing will make it so in your mind, it will be.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
Give me an army of "kids barely out of their teens" and I'll give you
an effective war-fighting force in about four years, provided I've got
a cadre of senior NCOs and Officers with the mettle to do the job.

I wasn't much of a soldier, though I wore the uniform and took the
Queen's shilling while I worked at learning the trade (and enjoyed most
of it; the rest I'll call 'character building'. *I* wasn't medevacked
with hypothermia even if other members of my platoon were! [Mostly, I
was in my basha when the rain hit so I was drier than they were in the
winds that followed... but why spoil a good story?]).


But with hindsight, one of the reasons the units I served in worked so
well was that each year's incoming cadre of 18 and 19-year old 'officer
cadets' ran head-on into some skilled, experienced and devious SNCOs
with good senior officers to back them up (definition of a good
adjutant... like God, you know He's there but you're glad you never get
proof of His existence ) and junior officers being given the chance
to sink or swim as leaders with a platoon of officer-cadets to lead. (If
we managed nothing else, we were a tough audience)

Even in peacetime, sorting "those who can lead" from "those who should
follow" and sifting out "arrogant buggers with too much technical
knowledge who think they *should* lead but lack the necessary skills[1]"
is not a simple task. My respects to those who tried to do so in
wartime.



[1] Yes, with hindsight, that was me. Still, better to try and fail...
and my current 'acting rank' is higher than anything I'd have achieved
in uniform, if you believe the published equivalencies.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:48:03 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , Ed Rasimus
writes
Give me an army of "kids barely out of their teens" and I'll give you
an effective war-fighting force in about four years, provided I've got
a cadre of senior NCOs and Officers with the mettle to do the job.

I wasn't much of a soldier, though I wore the uniform and took the
Queen's shilling while I worked at learning the trade (and enjoyed most
of it; the rest I'll call 'character building'. *I* wasn't medevacked
with hypothermia even if other members of my platoon were! [Mostly, I
was in my basha when the rain hit so I was drier than they were in the
winds that followed... but why spoil a good story?]).


But with hindsight, one of the reasons the units I served in worked so
well was that each year's incoming cadre of 18 and 19-year old 'officer
cadets' ran head-on into some skilled, experienced and devious SNCOs
with good senior officers to back them up (definition of a good
adjutant... like God, you know He's there but you're glad you never get
proof of His existence ) and junior officers being given the chance
to sink or swim as leaders with a platoon of officer-cadets to lead. (If
we managed nothing else, we were a tough audience)

Even in peacetime, sorting "those who can lead" from "those who should
follow" and sifting out "arrogant buggers with too much technical
knowledge who think they *should* lead but lack the necessary skills[1]"
is not a simple task. My respects to those who tried to do so in
wartime.

Well said. Puts the esoterica of discussion into the perspective of
reality.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.




Arthur Kramer

I'll be damned Art! Everyone whom I have passed your website URL to and has
looked at it sees you as squarely in the middle of those war lovers.

You appear to revel in your wartime experiences and can't even send an response
to this board without a signature block that is a mini resume of your wartime
exploits. Most of us here with combat experience rarely do anything close to
that - ever. I respectfully suggest to you that you are speaking out of both
sides of your mouth. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote
Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.

Arthur Kramer

I'll be damned Art! Everyone whom I have passed your website URL to and has
looked at it sees you as squarely in the middle of those war lovers.

You appear to revel in your wartime experiences and can't even send an response
to this board without a signature block that is a mini resume of your wartime
exploits. Most of us here with combat experience rarely do anything close to
that - ever. I respectfully suggest to you that you are speaking out of both
sides of your mouth. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

Besides becoming eligible for welfare, it's the only other thing he's done in
his life.

Subject: Bush Flew Fighter Jets During Vietnam
From: "Billy Preston"
Date: 7/19/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: eaYKc.6481$Zr.85@okepread01

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote
Except of course for the self appointed "Warrior Class" who revel in all
that
crap. Save us all from the war lovers.

Arthur Kramer

I'll be damned Art! Everyone whom I have passed your website URL to and
has
looked at it sees you as squarely in the middle of those war lovers.

You appear to revel in your wartime experiences and can't even send an
response
to this board without a signature block that is a mini resume of your
wartime
exploits. Most of us here with combat experience rarely do anything close
to
that - ever. I respectfully suggest to you that you are speaking out of
both
sides of your mouth. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

Besides becoming eligible for welfare, it's the only other thing he's done in
his life.



How about a Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor with a major American
corporation with operations worldwide? How about you? Ever done anything?.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

How about a Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor with a major American
corporation with operations worldwide? How about you? Ever done anything?.


Arthur Kramer

VP level program manager in AF Aeronautical Systems Division. Worked B-1, B-2,
KC-135R, F-15, F-16, F-22, amomg others. Executive support for 3 Star
commander. Otherwise nothing at all.