Night bombers interception in Western Europe in 1944

WalterM140 wrote in message ...

I wrote,

Yes folks, Eaker and Hunter are the designated Black Hat wearers
of the moment, all evil comes from them.

I have said that it might have been beyond anyone to make such a determination.
But for whatever reason, they didn't make it, didn't tumble onto it after many
others had, and were sacked in large part because of it.

snip pedantic rant

Sample of Deleted text, which is described as a pedantic rant,
the full text refutes Walter's pet conclusion, so it needs to be deleted
and editorialised away.

The Pacific theatre really wanted more P-38s, they were by far the
biggest fans, the problems of mass producing the P-38 cannot be
ignored, plus the changes made in 1943 to make the type more
combat worthy helping to limit production. How about raging against
the decision to convert 500 P-38s to unarmed photo reconnaissance
types in 1942 and 1943, versus the 3,684 completed as fighters by
the end of 1943, including the prototype. There is your "few dozen"
extra P-38s. Note by the way the first 433 or so fighters were not
really combat worthy, that is everything before the P-38F, and the
reconnaissance versions were model F and G conversions so some
25% of the available F and G airframe ended up unarmed. Presumably
Arnold will now be considered a bad captain.

The USAAF wanted more P-38s in 1943, there was little the ETO
could do to speed up the process. It also realised the need for
high performance reconnaissance types. Only the defence of
England, of all the theatres of war, had enough allied fighters at the
start of 1943. So the P-47 went to Europe and even New Guinea.

I'll look in later notes in the thread, but you seem to not responded to this
piece of text:

You see folks, Walter has a basic test for "responses", he expects
one before you have actually seen the request. Then tries to imply
you are ducking the issue.

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.
Source?


Williamson Murray in his book Luftwaffe, quoting Boylan, in The
development of the long range fighter escort, pages 90 to 91
and 121.

I find no corroboration for such a supposed statement.

Walter does not bother to look for facts that disturb the preferred
conclusions.

"Eaker as late as October 1943 still believed the key was in the size of the
bomber formations... Eaker stuck to this belief while high-ranking officers
such as Chief of the Air Staff Barney Giles and commanmder of the VIII Bomber
Command Fred Anderson had determined that escort was the key to victory."

-- "To Command the Sky, p. 112, by McFarland and Newton

"During June 1943 Assistant Secretary of War for Air Robert Lovett visited
England to observe Eighth Air Force operations. He spent considerable time
inspecting the VIII Fighter Command and especially the problems of escort. At
an Eighth Air Force comanders' mmeeting immediately after Lovett's visit,
Hunter told Eaker that he feared Lovett would insist on the use of P-38's for
escort. Hunter identified the P-38 as a "wonderful ship," but preferrred to
give the P-47 a "complete trial." In doing so Hunter reavealed his
misunderstanding of the basic issue confronting the Eighth Ar Force in the
summer and fall of 1943. The bombers needed escorts with range, bot superior
fighters. The P-47 was a better dogfighter, but it did not have the legs to fly
long escort missions."

ibid, p. 114

I find no evidence that Eaker thought it imperitive to provide escort or that
he communicated such with Lovett.

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?

You seem to have just made it up.

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.

See for example Eaker's letter to Wilfrid Freeman noting that the
Munster raid of 10th October 1943 might have lost only 10 bombers
instead of the around 30 lost if the escorts had been able to stay
with the bombers.

It is really simple, Eaker was more complicated that the cardboard
black hat wearing bad guy Walter prefers. He was amongst the last
to hold the unescorted bombers idea but he hedged his bets.

deleted text,

"By the way if Eaker was still an unescorted heavy bomber fan you can
show all those sorts of missions run by the15th Air Force in 1944 when
he commanded it, correct?"

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"Eaker as late as October 1943 still believed the key was in the size of the
bomber formations... Eaker stuck to this belief while high-ranking officers
such as Chief of the Air Staff Barney Giles and commanmder of the VIII
Bomber
Command Fred Anderson had determined that escort was the key to victory."

-- "To Command the Sky, p. 112, by McFarland and Newton

"During June 1943 Assistant Secretary of War for Air Robert Lovett visited
England to observe Eighth Air Force operations. He spent considerable time
inspecting the VIII Fighter Command and especially the problems of escort.
At
an Eighth Air Force comanders' mmeeting immediately after Lovett's visit,
Hunter told Eaker that he feared Lovett would insist on the use of P-38's
for
escort. Hunter identified the P-38 as a "wonderful ship," but preferrred to
give the P-47 a "complete trial." In doing so Hunter reavealed his
misunderstanding of the basic issue confronting the Eighth Ar Force in the
summer and fall of 1943. The bombers needed escorts with range, bot
superior
fighters. The P-47 was a better dogfighter, but it did not have the legs to
fly
long escort missions."

ibid, p. 114

I find no evidence that Eaker thought it imperitive to provide escort or
that
he communicated such with Lovett.

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?

You seem to have just made it up.

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.


You lied. You got caught. Again.

You wrote:

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.


Eaker never said anything during the summer of 1943 to Asst. SecWar Lovett such
as you said he did.

Bye, Sinclair.

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote:

...

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.


You lied. You got caught. Again.

Mr. Sinclair came to a valid conclusion about you.

You wrote:

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.


Eaker never said anything during the summer of 1943 to Asst. SecWar Lovett
such
as you said he did.

Were you there, as for him not saying it there are a good numbers references
that say that conversation did take place.

WalterM140 wrote in message ...

Firstly some deleted text I wrote, on what Eaker said to Lovett,
the source for my comments,

Williamson Murray in his book Luftwaffe, quoting Boylan, in The
development of the long range fighter escort, pages 90 to 91
and 121.

This has to be deleted. It cannot exist if Walter is to try and smear.

(snip)

I find no evidence that Eaker thought it imperitive to provide escort or
that he communicated such with Lovett.

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?

You seem to have just made it up.

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.

You lied. You got caught. Again.

Walter's definition of telling lies is basically pointing out unpleasant
facts that ruin his preferred fiction.

You wrote:

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.

Eaker never said anything during the summer of 1943 to Asst.
SecWar Lovett such as you said he did.

I presume Walter has the transcripts of all the Eaker Lovett conversations,
to make this claim but I doubt it. Alternatively he has read the Boylan book
I referenced, but I doubt that as well.

It appears Eaker is set up as the 2 dimensional bad guy, so the fact
the 8th did improve escort range and numbers during his command is
to be ignored, the fact people have noted Eaker did understand the
idea of long range escorts has to be dropped.

Bye, Sinclair.

Hey great, Walter is going to move onto something else.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I find no evidence that Eaker thought it imperitive to provide escort or
that he communicated such with Lovett.

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?

You seem to have just made it up.

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.

You lied. You got caught. Again.

Walter's definition of telling lies is basically pointing out unpleasant
facts that ruin his preferred fiction.

Sinclair wrote:

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.

Eaker never said anything during the summer of 1943 to Asst.
SecWar Lovett such as you said he did.

I presume Walter has the transcripts of all the Eaker Lovett conversations,

You made the statement. You can't back it up. You lied. You got caught.

Eaker did not discuss the development of a long range fighter with Lovett when
Lovett came to England in the Summer of 1943. Eaker did not urge the rapid
development of such an aircraft at that time.

You lied. You got caught.

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote:
I find no evidence that Eaker thought it imperitive to provide escort
or
that he communicated such with Lovett.

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?

You seem to have just made it up.

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.

You lied. You got caught. Again.

Walter's definition of telling lies is basically pointing out unpleasant
facts that ruin his preferred fiction.

Sinclair wrote:

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.

Eaker never said anything during the summer of 1943 to Asst.
SecWar Lovett such as you said he did.

I presume Walter has the transcripts of all the Eaker Lovett
conversations,

You made the statement. You can't back it up.

He did back it up, your comments and sources on the subject appear to be
very thin.

You lied.

No that's your problem.

You got caught.

He caught you several times.

Eaker did not discuss the development of a long range fighter with Lovett
when
Lovett came to England in the Summer of 1943. Eaker did not urge the
rapid
development of such an aircraft at that time.

You lied. You got caught.

If Eaker didn't discuss it with Lovett during the Summer of 1943 who did
discuss it with Lovett during that time? Lovett came back from that visit to
England in the Summer of 1943 pushing for the development of a long range
fighter.

You can start here for a reference:

The Neglect of Long-Range Escort Development Dduring The Interwar Years
(1918-1943) by Major Robert A. Eslinger.

research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ay1997/acsc/97-0126A.pdf

But you have already demonstrated you have an inability to read anything but
the simplest text on any subject.

WalterM140 wrote in message ...

My text, deleted again it seems.

Firstly some deleted text I wrote, on what Eaker said to Lovett,
the source for my comments,

Williamson Murray in his book Luftwaffe, quoting Boylan, in The
development of the long range fighter escort, pages 90 to 91
and 121.

This has to be deleted. It cannot exist if Walter is to try and smear.

I find no evidence that Eaker thought it imperitive to provide escort or
that he communicated such with Lovett.

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?

You seem to have just made it up.

Translation Walter is as bad at character assassination as history.

You lied. You got caught. Again.

Walter's definition of telling lies is basically pointing out unpleasant
facts that ruin his preferred fiction.

Sinclair wrote:

Meantime Eaker convinced Robert Lovett, the Assistant Secretary of
War for Air to push for a long range fighter.

Eaker never said anything during the summer of 1943 to Asst.
SecWar Lovett such as you said he did.

I presume Walter has the transcripts of all the Eaker Lovett conversations,

deleted text,

"to make this claim but I doubt it. Alternatively he has read the Boylan book
I referenced, but I doubt that as well."


Yes folks, whenever I back up the claim the information has to be
deleted it seems, otherwise the next sentence cannot be written.

You made the statement. You can't back it up. You lied. You got caught.

This is becoming very funny, every time I post the source for the
information Walter deletes the reference and announces "lies".

Walter's definition of telling lies is basically pointing out unpleasant
facts that ruin his preferred fiction.

Eaker did not discuss the development of a long range fighter with Lovett when
Lovett came to England in the Summer of 1943. Eaker did not urge the rapid
development of such an aircraft at that time.

Note by the way the new addition to the Walter claims, "the rapid
development one". Another standard tactic, introduce a different
claim and go on about it. I have little doubt Eaker would not be in
the "rapid development" camp, but it appears he had a foot in the
"good idea to develop one" camp. He was also doing it, with the
efforts to put drop tanks on P-47s. I also note the new claim the
idea Lovett did not discuss the idea of long range fighters with
the commander of the air force he was visiting. Why not? Since it
is clear the idea was going around, why did Lovett fail to raise the
topic?

It appears Eaker is set up as the 2 dimensional bad guy, so the fact
the 8th did improve escort range and numbers during his command is
to be ignored, the fact people have noted Eaker did understand the
idea of long range escorts has to be dropped.

You lied. You got caught.


Silly isn't it? It seems Walter's idea of "bye" is to simply repeat claims
of lies over and over.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Subject: Why not more P-38s?
From: "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Date: 7/21/2004 9:43 PM Pacific

So why were P-47s fitted with drop tanks and used as escorts during
Eaker's period of command?


I don't know about Eaker, but I flew missions where we had P-47's with drop
tanks for top cover.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer