Glide computer in certified glider

In short,
What is required to install a non-TSO’d moving map flight computer IN the panel of my certified glider?
A 337 mess?

WG

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 10:06:56 PM UTC-7, Wade G wrote:
In short,
What is required to install a non-TSO’d moving map flight computer IN the panel of my certified glider?
A 337 mess?

WG

A savvy A&P with a pen.

And a sawzall.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...-keep-it-minor

--Bob K.

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 10:06:56 PM UTC-7, Wade G wrote:
In short,
What is required to install a non-TSO’d moving map flight computer IN the panel of my certified glider?
A 337 mess?

WG

I would think not. If it is not a primary flight instrument, and I assume that you are keeping all of those, it falls into the category of an accessory. Sort of like in flight music. But, by all means, call your local FSDO for clarification. And, if you make the request in writing, the FAA will give you a formal determination. This may be a good idea before going to all the trouble and then having some uninformed mechanic say he can't sign off on your annual because of this unallowed mod.

Tom

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 10:06:56 PM UTC-7, Wade G wrote:
In short,
What is required to install a non-TSO’d moving map flight computer IN the panel of my certified glider?
A 337 mess?

WG

Where is your glider A&P?

In short, it depends. But is usually only an A&P entry for a minor change in the maintenance log book. A 337 is required for major changes, and it is extremely difficult to image an flight computer install that is by itself going to qualify as a major change in a glider. There are lots of discussions online from EAA and AOPA about what constitutes minor and major changes, start there if you want to read up on this.

If you have to ask these questions you probably should not be contacting a FSDO. Asking questions there can possibly end you up in a world of hurt and confusion. Its best to leave any questions like that up to the A&P you are working with. Find an A&P who is experienced working on gliders, you want that glider specific knowledge anyhow, and this question will likely be easy for them to discuss with you and answer once they know the specific work involved. And if its for some reason a very unusual install that needs a FSDO discussion or possible 337 filed, let them have that discussion.

At 07:23 09 May 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 10:06:56 PM UTC-7, Wade G wrote:
In short,
What is required to install a non-TSO=E2=80=99d moving map
flight
compute=
r IN the panel of my certified glider?
A 337 mess?
=20
WG

Where is your glider A&P?=20

In short, it depends. But is usually only an A&P entry for a minor
change
i=
n the maintenance log book. A 337 is required for major changes,
and it is
=
extremely difficult to image an flight computer install that is by
itself
g=
oing to qualify as a major change in a glider. There are lots of
discussion=
s online from EAA and AOPA about what constitutes minor and
major changes,
=
start there if you want to read up on this.

If you have to ask these questions you probably should not be
contacting a
=
FSDO. Asking questions there can possibly end you up in a world
of hurt
and=
confusion. Its best to leave any questions like that up to the A&P
you
are=
working with. Find an A&P who is experienced working on gliders,
you want
=
that glider specific knowledge anyhow, and this question will likely
be
eas=
y for them to discuss with you and answer once they know the
specific work
=
involved. And if its for some reason a very unusual install that
needs a
FS=
DO discussion or possible 337 filed, let them have that discussion.


The major European manufacturers have general ADs covering
instrument panel and cockpit equipment changes which identify
things you need to check about the item to install (like security,
power consumption etc) This constitutes blanket approval for the
changes, you just quote the AD in the paperwork.(CS-STAN)
I know of Sclhicher, Schempp and DG/LS, there may be others.

Dont know if you can do this in the US

There is an equivalent system under EASA where MFR ADs are not
available (surprisingly helpful) although i doubt many people applied
for an EASA minor mod to change their electric vario. However i
doubt this process would carry to the US.

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-7, Peter Thomas wrote:
At 07:23 09 May 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 10:06:56 PM UTC-7, Wade G wrote:
In short,
What is required to install a non-TSO=E2=80=99d moving map
flight
compute=
r IN the panel of my certified glider?
A 337 mess?
=20
WG

Where is your glider A&P?=20

In short, it depends. But is usually only an A&P entry for a minor
change
i=
n the maintenance log book. A 337 is required for major changes,
and it is
=
extremely difficult to image an flight computer install that is by
itself
g=
oing to qualify as a major change in a glider. There are lots of
discussion=
s online from EAA and AOPA about what constitutes minor and
major changes,
=
start there if you want to read up on this.

If you have to ask these questions you probably should not be
contacting a
=
FSDO. Asking questions there can possibly end you up in a world
of hurt
and=
confusion. Its best to leave any questions like that up to the A&P
you
are=
working with. Find an A&P who is experienced working on gliders,
you want
=
that glider specific knowledge anyhow, and this question will likely
be
eas=
y for them to discuss with you and answer once they know the
specific work
=
involved. And if its for some reason a very unusual install that
needs a
FS=
DO discussion or possible 337 filed, let them have that discussion.


The major European manufacturers have general ADs covering
instrument panel and cockpit equipment changes which identify
things you need to check about the item to install (like security,
power consumption etc) This constitutes blanket approval for the
changes, you just quote the AD in the paperwork.(CS-STAN)
I know of Sclhicher, Schempp and DG/LS, there may be others.

Dont know if you can do this in the US

There is an equivalent system under EASA where MFR ADs are not
available (surprisingly helpful) although i doubt many people applied
for an EASA minor mod to change their electric vario. However i
doubt this process would carry to the US.

This is going down the entirely wrong rat hole. These are usually (FAA's regulatory definition of) minor changes (not related necessarily to anything called the same in Europe) that require no interaction with the FAA and no specific paperwork to approve the change. A maintenance log book entry from an A&P is all that is normally required for this in a type certificated glider. The A&P will choose what instructions they follow, and might well follow EASA minor change instructions. I suspect the thing to be most careful of is not replacing any of the flight instruments required in the type certificate with random flight computer capabilities.

This really should be a brief discussion with a glider A&P... its up to them to work on this and advise owners of what is needed. If stuff is not clear then ask your A&P to explain it to you (there may be reasons) or if they can't do so to your satisfaction then call another glider repair shop.

I recently got roped into advising on a few ADS-B Out/avionics installs in powered aircraft and that reminded me of how much confusion there on ADS-B in GA and on the major vs. minor change stuff and how many assumptions owners can make before talking to a knowledgeable A&P. (Hey Bob, I'd love a ride in that T6 with or without ADS-B Out :-)).

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 2:05:51 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:

This is going down the entirely wrong rat hole.

I was going to say "Looking up a dead horses ass". Granted, there are different interpretations and basis for installations. I once had an AI refuse to sign off an annual because of an S80 until I produced a Factory Service Letter outlining the installation of non TSOd equipment. On my last install (Different glider) I went with the basis outlined in the Maintenance Manual (Which allowed for the installation of ANY GPS). When I did a transponder install a couple of older mechanics said it would involve a 337 but the FAA said this is considered a minor alteration (And has been for some time). A few times, When I was feeling lucky, I talked to the FAA and went all the way up to the Regional Manager for Certification for the Northwest US. This person dispelled a lot of Internet Folklore.
To the OP, just ask around and possibly check with the manufacturer.

Transponder installs somehow automatically being a major change and therefore requiring a 337 misinformation is my favorite dead horses ass :-) That old chestnut (must have been a Chestnut horse?) is coming up again in the context of ADS-B Out installs. (and the quicj answer there is most should be minor changes, unless there is some other reason the install is a major change).

Don't know about gliders yet, but the ADS-B install in my airplane was
accomplished by a shop under an STC.

On 5/9/2018 4:14 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Transponder installs somehow automatically being a major change and therefore requiring a 337 misinformation is my favorite dead horses ass :-) That old chestnut (must have been a Chestnut horse?) is coming up again in the context of ADS-B Out installs. (and the quicj answer there is most should be minor changes, unless there is some other reason the install is a major change).


--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 4:02:34 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don't know about gliders yet, but the ADS-B install in my airplane was
accomplished by a shop under an STC.

On 5/9/2018 4:14 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Transponder installs somehow automatically being a major change and therefore requiring a 337 misinformation is my favorite dead horses ass :-) That old chestnut (must have been a Chestnut horse?) is coming up again in the context of ADS-B Out installs. (and the quicj answer there is most should be minor changes, unless there is some other reason the install is a major change).

OK down another rat hole...

"accomplished... using a STC" can means two different things with ADS-B Out..

For 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out you normally need to use an STC as a basis for the pairing of a ADS-B Out tranmitter (e.g. transponder) and GPS Source. And the FAA asks for a "notice only" '337 to be filed with Oklahoma HQ. None of that necessarily makes this a major change, requiring a normal 337 major change to be approved by the FSDO and (typically a STC used as a basis for that approval). This is documented in FAA Policy 8900.362 (yes technically expired but still being followed) that A&P should be aware of. A mistake here seems to be folks assuming they have to do more than the policy exactly says. And usually another example of why you want an experienced glider A&P interpreting this stuff. If the A&P believes the insulation itself *is* a major change then they also need to file a 337 for major change approval with the FSDO.... that should *not* be the case for most glider ADS-B Out installs. (and they will likely immediately run into problems with no STC existing to use as an install basis for any transponder in any glider in the USA, and the typical AML STCs used for that pairing not listing the glider on the AML STC... likely not an issue if all you care about is the pairing being previously approved). If folks incorrectly submit those notice only 337s to the FSDO where they are not required, don't be upset when the FSDO assumes you are seeking major change approval and starts asking for transponder install STCs that don't exist...the FSDO staff are doing what you pushed them to do. I think there should be a type of Hippocratic oath when dealing with regulatory agencies... don't create work/confusion where it does not need to be.

None of 8900.362 applies to experiential gliders and none of 8900.362 applies to TABS installs in certified (or experimental) gliders, since you are not seeking compliance there with 14 CFR 91.225 and 91.227, which is all this policy addresses.