Stall, spin fatality today in Arizona.

While that may true, if you don't try to be a part of the solution, maybe you are part of the problem.
If someone ignores all the help in the world to help them, their family and friends, if you tried and failed....at least you tried.
Yes, no matter the level of help, some just seem to be destined to run for a Darwin award.

No, this is NOT a comment on the pilot or his friends in this thread.
This is a suggestion in general to maybe help someone else. I am supporting the "real UH" in this thread. Even the biggest butthead is worth at least $50 or so to save his butt.

What's the general culture out there? Do guys sit around hangar flying and bragging about their latest low saves? Could his decision to try a low save have been influenced by seeing others do so or getting lucky enough times in the past, himself? Something made him think it was a good decision to try to get a low save. If he had been successful, would the local crowd have applauded his skill and derring-do, or would they have quietly pulled him aside counseled him about it?

I believe the glorification of low saves in the pattern and other dubious behaviors adds a subconcious level of confidence that could influence a pilot's decisions. The inner voice whispers,"Those guys do it, I can, too!" Or, "I did it before and it worked, so I can do it again." I've been around a cadre of glider pilots that routinely climb away after entering the downwind and announcing their intent to land, then catching some lift and trying to dig out. Some brag about how low they released on tow, managing to climb away, and then egg each other on to get off lower. The new pilots sit and soak it all up in wonder.

It's tough to hold your ground and not try to emulate the old guard when they have so much more experience, but most of us do.

My understanding (I wasn't there) was that they were auto towing on a 3500 ft runway getting to 800 ft. I'm guessing that to be a possible factor in as much as all things are relative and 400 ft might not seemed quite as low to Andy starting from 800 ft as compared to how it might seem gliding down from the more usual aerotow start at 2000 ft. From 800 ft one has little opportunity to find lift before you must commit to landing. It's easy to see how he might have gotten a sense of accomodation to the lower altitudes and became willing to push lower on the tries.

Andy was one hell of a nice guy. He always wore a smile and was always willing to help. He was as easy going as anybody could be. Since I'm at the uptight end of the scale, I especially admired his ways. Andy will be seriously missed around here.

I checked Andy out on our winch with a tow to about 800’ in the 2-33. On that flight I talked to him about not circling low. We then sat down and talked about the differences winching in a high performance ship with a CG hook, and again, I told him not to circle low. He then took a tow in his Cirrus and got to at least 1000’ maybe 1100’ To try and blame his death on the winch launch is really stupid Steve. You have my number, rather than making this **** up, why don’t you call me and find out the facts first.

Boggs

On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 9:21:38 PM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
I checked Andy out on our winch with a tow to about 800’ in the 2-33. On that flight I talked to him about not circling low. We then sat down and talked about the differences winching in a high performance ship with a CG hook, and again, I told him not to circle low. He then took a tow in his Cirrus and got to at least 1000’ maybe 1100’ To try and blame his death on the winch launch is really stupid Steve. You have my number, rather than making this **** up, why don’t you call me and find out the facts first.

Boggs

Gary: I am definitely not blaming you or the tow. You misread. What I said was that there is an altitude perception issue that I can visualize contributing to the pilot's judgement error. I am just searching for a way to understand what might have caused him to circle so damn low. If he towed to 1000 feet then my point gets weakened a little bit (An email someone sent me had said 800 feet; but I trust what you observed more than that email).

Sometimes it’s more fun to talk **** behind someone’s back that to make a couple of phone calls and find out the truth, eh?

Boggs
602-284-9977

Once again the portion of RAS that makes me want to throw my phone or throw up my hands in disgust or just plain throw up rears up again. Terms being thrown around that are base at best, second guessing from the armchair and a blatant disrespect for the victim, family, friends, witnesses and others that have to deal with this.

It's not everyone for sure but the inflated egos, the insensitivity, the need to be right at all costs and the lack of humility from a few folks is pretty damn sad.

Gary - I'm so sorry. All one should say publicly right now is we are all so sorry.

For those on their soapboxes with no apparent social skills or filter - please think before you type. Practice empathy. I've read if one doesn't have empathy pretending actually works well and leads in some cases actual empathy.

There but for the grace of god goes I - I could screw up at anytime, anywhere, anyhow.

Regards Tom