A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Emergency Exit



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 2nd 18, 06:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,463
Default Emergency Exit

On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 2:22:38 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 4:00:18 PM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
At 19:04 30 June 2018, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Saturday, June 30, 2018 at 1:45:05 PM UTC-5, Dave

Walsh wrote:
At 14:33 30 June 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
To me the major advantages of a BRS over a

personal=20
parachute are the=20
speed and certainty of deployment.=C2=A0 Of course

either=20
system may fail or=20
malfunction, but with the BRS, you lose the difficulty

of=20
getting out=20
into space and deploying at in unfavorable position.

Simply=20
pull the=20
handle and enjoy the ride.

But, upon landing in a windy situation, you run the

very=20
real risk of=20
being killed in a tumbling, disintegrating wreck

being=20
dragged along the=20
ground.=C2=A0 Is there a jettison capability that could

be armed=20
by the=20
sudden deceleration of landing?=C2=A0 Perhaps an

automatic=20
jettison?=C2=A0 Might=20
that malfunction at 500' and give you a last thrilling

ride?

On 6/29/2018 10:49 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Beacause floating around out of control under a=20
parachute is safer?
BRS sounds good, but in practice I would prefer

a=20
personal chute every
time.

--=20
Dan, 5J

Of course you could be struck by lightening as you

descend=20
under your BRS canopy but has anyone ever died

being=20
"dragged along the ground" after a successful BRS

escape?
Plenty have died following a conventional parachute mal-
function.
The bottom line is that BRS will work at a lower height

but is=20
hardly available in any common sailplane on sale today.
Retro fitting a BRS to an EASA sailplane would be a=20
expensive, possibly impossible, task. With ultra-light=20
sailplanes it's different.
The other major problem, as clearly explained on

DG's=20
website, is that "safety does not sell sailplanes". The=20
majority of DG sailplanes sold were NOT equipped with

the=20
NOAH system: the new buyers simply did not order

the=20
NOAH system. Even if BRS was available today how

many=20
buyers would buy it?
Dave W

If a BRS system were available factory installed at a

reasonable price, I
s=
uspect that a very large percentage of buyers would sign

up. It's a huge
s=
elling point if you are trying to get the OK from your

spouse to upgrade
to=
a new glider. =20

Offering a BRS system standard on all of their airplanes is

probably the
#1=
reason that Cirrus is now the largest piston engine aircraft

manufacturer
=
in the world.


Yes you're probably quite right about the Cirrus BUT in a
Cirrus you might well have wife and kids along for the ride.
The fact remains that the majority of DG customers do not
specify the NOAH system; it's actually relatively cheap
compared to the new cost of a DG808C or DG1000x. Why is
that?
Dave W


Maybe people think that the NOAH system is a half baked solution. Cirrus and Phoenix think that BRS systems are important enough that they make them standard and a significant part of their marketing.


The NOAH system is far from "half baked". DG actually developed a system that works, and they are the only ones that have for a glider. Approximately two thirds of the non-motor gliders sold, have sustainers engines where the BRS would go, hence the NOAH. This is an emergency assist. The chance of needing such a device is as rare as needing to jump, yet DG stepped up to the plate and designed and tested a solution, that is affordable (about 4,000 euro before installation). Comparing Phoenix and Cirrus aircraft, with their marketing, design, customers base, and funding sources, to gliding is with all due respect "half baked".
  #2  
Old July 3rd 18, 01:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 394
Default Emergency Exit

I have flown with a a 1050-BRS for about 10 years in two Genesis-2 sailplanes (sold one, missed it, so I bought another one and the BRS availability was a big part of deciding to buy another one), I can provide some basic info. The deployment max airspeed is 138 mph and 1050# G/W with no stated max or minimum altitude, but saves have been obtained as low as 350 feet! Repack every 6 years for $1000 bucks and replace rocket fuel every 12 years (cost unknown, but estimate the 12 year repack and new fuel should come in under $1500. Initial cost is $5000+ 1000 installation (in a Genesis-2). The Genesis is the most comfortable ship I have ever flown because the personal chute was replaced by a 4" pad with only lap belt and shoulder harness. No way to jettison the chute, but that's also true with most back-packs used in sailplanes. I believe it would take a good 40 knot wind to drag the whole sailplane on the ground, after landing..........and if that were to happen, I believe I would just wait for the ship to hang up on something.
The system is well engineered with safety pin used on the ground and even if the red handle were accidentally kicked with pin out, it takes a 35# pull about 6" to fire the rocket! I take great comfort in my ability to just pull the little red handle should it ever become necessary.
Hope this helps,
JJ
  #3  
Old July 2nd 18, 05:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Emergency Exit

I had the opportunity to fly with a Ventus 2BXR (R for Recovery) at Saint-Auban (France). With that experience, I'd say a BRS in a glider is not a very practical solution as far as I'm concerned.

Due to the ballistic extractor being placed under the fuselage skin between the wings, it could shoot out exactly where your head would be when pushing the glider. Therefore, there are multiple safety systems to verify, a separate electrical circuit, a safety pin to extract just before taking off, and to put back in place after landing before exiting the glider. Sure as hell, you are bound to forget something if you do not strictly follow a written checklist every time.

At Saint-Auban, I had to sign a specific document stating my knowledge of the system before being allowed to fly the glider. The CNVV ended up selling the glider because these limitations made it financially uninteresting.

I once forgot to take the safety pin out (you still can do it in flight, fortunately), once to put it back (really a bad idea, but I'm not used to a check-list before exiting a glider)...

Stephane


Le samedi 30 juin 2018 21:04:53 UTC+2, Mike Schumann a écritÂ*:
On Saturday, June 30, 2018 at 1:45:05 PM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
At 14:33 30 June 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
To me the major advantages of a BRS over a personal

parachute are the
speed and certainty of deployment.Â* Of course either

system may fail or
malfunction, but with the BRS, you lose the difficulty of

getting out
into space and deploying at in unfavorable position. Simply

pull the
handle and enjoy the ride.

But, upon landing in a windy situation, you run the very

real risk of
being killed in a tumbling, disintegrating wreck being

dragged along the
ground.Â* Is there a jettison capability that could be armed

by the
sudden deceleration of landing?Â* Perhaps an automatic

jettison?Â* Might
that malfunction at 500' and give you a last thrilling ride?

On 6/29/2018 10:49 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Beacause floating around out of control under a

parachute is safer?
BRS sounds good, but in practice I would prefer a

personal chute every
time.

--
Dan, 5J

Of course you could be struck by lightening as you descend
under your BRS canopy but has anyone ever died being
"dragged along the ground" after a successful BRS escape?
Plenty have died following a conventional parachute mal-
function.
The bottom line is that BRS will work at a lower height but is
hardly available in any common sailplane on sale today.
Retro fitting a BRS to an EASA sailplane would be a
expensive, possibly impossible, task. With ultra-light
sailplanes it's different.
The other major problem, as clearly explained on DG's
website, is that "safety does not sell sailplanes". The
majority of DG sailplanes sold were NOT equipped with the
NOAH system: the new buyers simply did not order the
NOAH system. Even if BRS was available today how many
buyers would buy it?
Dave W


If a BRS system were available factory installed at a reasonable price, I suspect that a very large percentage of buyers would sign up. It's a huge selling point if you are trying to get the OK from your spouse to upgrade to a new glider.

Offering a BRS system standard on all of their airplanes is probably the #1 reason that Cirrus is now the largest piston engine aircraft manufacturer in the world.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Air exit vent with engine box? [email protected] Soaring 5 December 8th 15 04:14 AM
An elegant exit Frank Whiteley Soaring 2 May 15th 09 02:28 PM
Accident report - PDA's can restrict emergency exit Ramy Soaring 21 December 31st 06 05:45 PM
How do you exit a F-22 cockpit? John Dallman Naval Aviation 1 May 28th 06 02:51 PM
How do you exit a F-22 cockpit? Mike Naval Aviation 11 May 25th 06 08:01 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.