Accelerated spin in unexpected direction at low altitude

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan.. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.
Thanks
UH

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 5:29:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing.. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.

I'd assume one resulting from an accelerated stall i.e. a stall at higher speed than the normal straight and level stall speed, due to G loading.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 5:29:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react.

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.
Thanks
UH

"Accelerated spin" ? No such thing unless you wanted to quantify rotation rate.
I think what Marty and Andre meant to say was abrupt, unexpected departure.....
or departure from accelerated stall --
but that makes for less storydrama by having a more concise description.

Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(1000m agl). Ever.

Best wishes,

Cindy B

On Tue, 03 Jul 2018 23:36:11 -0700, CindyB wrote:

Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(1000m agl). Ever.

Out of sheer curiosity, why do you say that?

I've been flying gliders for 18 years and have spun the club's Puchacz at
least once in each of those years. Its always done what I expected it to
do apart from the occasional wing drop in an intentional stall and has
never spun when I wasn't expecting it to. Its the one of our club's two
seaters that I most enjoy flying solo.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

It's that one time that will get you....

Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning accidentally in the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.

They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that every so often .. no.

At 05:33 05 July 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the
occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning accidentally
in
the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.

They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that every so
often
.. no.

All the Puchacz spin ins I know of had a most likely reason that no
recovery action was initiated.

One because a couple of instructors kept it spinning until too low to
recover. There was a voice recording and no indication of a problem
recovering, or any attempt to do so.
One because it had a low cable break and the instructor did a low circuit,
got too slow round the final turn.
One because the pupil froze on the controls so the instructor couldn't get
the stick forwards. I saw that one.
And one where the instructor seems to have had a heart attack and the pupil
didn't cope.

The Puchacz recovery process is normal and what matters is to move the
stick forwards to pitch the nose down to reduce the angle of attack and so
unstall the wing. It takes more movement than a Ka13 but not more than a
lot of single seaters.

Chris

At 06:44 05 July 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
At 05:33 05 July 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie
Quebec wrote:
Because of the large number that have spun to the ground
and killed the
occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning
accidentall
in
the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.

They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that
every s
often
.. no.

All the Puchacz spin ins I know of had a most likely reason that n
recovery action was initiated.

One because a couple of instructors kept it spinning until too low
t
recover. There was a voice recording and no indication of a
proble
recovering, or any attempt to do so.
One because it had a low cable break and the instructor did a
low circuit
got too slow round the final turn.
One because the pupil froze on the controls so the instructor
couldn't ge
the stick forwards. I saw that one.
And one where the instructor seems to have had a heart attack
and the pupi
didn't cope.

The Puchacz recovery process is normal and what matters is to
move th
stick forwards to pitch the nose down to reduce the angle of
attack and s
unstall the wing. It takes more movement than a Ka13 but not
more than
lot of single seaters.

Chris



Well said Chris! The Puchacz is a superb training machine . It
comes out of the spin as well as it goes in! Anything will hurt if
you don’t use the correct recovery procedure of spin too close to
Mother Earth.

Mark

At 06:36 04 July 2018, CindyB wrote:

Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(1000m agl). Ever.

Best wishes,

Cindy B

Setting a hard deck of 1000ft agl is not really of much use. It is very
unlikely that you would be able to make a successful abandonment if in
a spin at 1000ft. You should really double that if you are serious about
having a hard deck which leaves you with another option if the spin
cannot be stopped. I rejected an abandonment with a control restriction
in level flight at 1000ft as I was not sure that I had the time. My
parachute was reputed to open and decelerate in time at 750ft when it
was new.

The reasons why Puchs have spun in is speculative in most cases. In
most cases the only witnesses worth anything at all, who could tell you
what happened, couldn't. It is very easy to blame pilots who are unable
to speak for themselves. As far as I can make out in most cases the
cause should have been recorded as undetermined. Probably is just not
good enough.