Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in the west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is often not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway fully ballasted.

Ramy

At 02:28 07 August 2018, Ramy wrote:
It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed
with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more
speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in
the
west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is
often
not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway
fully ballasted.

Ramy

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight manual. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron authority, then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's always worked for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward stick for me. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

At 04:17 09 August 2018, GliderCZ wrote:

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am
sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at
70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight
manu=
al. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron
authority,
=
then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's
always
worke=
d for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward
stick for
m=
e. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

Thanks that helps.

This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71



--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71



--
Dan, 5J

Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.

Steve, you're right.Â* I was considering enough altitude to stuff the
nose down and recover.

On 8/7/2018 9:08 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71


--
Dan, 5J
Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:45:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing.. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot.. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Where to start. Believe it or not some places do not have comms with the tow plane other than hand signals. I believe the first place is to properly train tow pilots. A couple years ago at Nephi I had a tug where the pilot basically did a short field takeoff and started to climb! I was screaming at him to stay in ground effect as I had not even lifted off!! On the same tow I got into an argument with the pilot when I asked for another ten knots! "do you really want me to add ten knots".."Yes, for fu@ksakes". Years ago at my home airport we had a spat of extremely poorly trained tow pilots, fortunately now all of them are very well trained. As for written instructions, great idea, but I have yet to have a tow pilot actually read or follow the tow chit, other where I wanted to be released. ON my first tow out of Truckee, I filled out their tow chit and since I had not flown there before I checked the box for no thermaling on tow. I have about 1700 hours of glider time, I have never seen a tow plane bank it up 50 degrees to thermal at 800 feet, we played a game of crack the whip until I could dig the boom mike out from under my arm pit.

How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion? Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow? If so, why? Please illuminate me.