Flying with Parachutes

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:46:37 PM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 August 2018 18:14:39 UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:51:23 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:

I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights.

That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But obviously we live in different culture.

With all due respect there is a lot of judgement on this site. Most of my multiple thousands of hours of flight time is without a chute, nor would one have been appropriate or even useful (helicopter; twin). I certainly respect your operation's procedures and I don't disagree. However, many operations conduct commercial rides as a normal course of business without chutes. A part time line pilot is not going to change how an operation has successfully run for over 45 years, with never an incident where a parachute would have been nice.

As I said, we have different culture. I have never seen or heard anyone flying without chute and would ground such pilot on the spot and forever. Anecdotal evidence make extremely bad statistics. I too have never used parachute, though I have witnessed emergency jump after midair.

Imagine this, a 2-32 with two passengers in the back seat. It has been a hot day, the passengers are taking this flight on whim and are giddy, laughing, perhaps one is a minor, or a young couple looking for a thrill and not really in a the state of mind I want someone making command decisions about life. The canopy is closed at the last moment the tow starts smoothly, at 300 feet you hit the first bump, the canopy flies off. With the canopy goes any hope of being heard over the wind, the two in the back were well briefed on only jump if you hear "bailout, bailout, bailout," how to pull the rip cord and where it is so when the canopy goes and they see the pilot in the front say something right after the canopy was jettisoned they bailout, at 300 feet on windy tow. Not having an incident needing a parachute is not anecdotal, it is factual. However, there have been a number of lost canopies, broken tow ropes, wind shear, tow plane engine problems on tow... any number of issues that require a calm pilot to make the correct timely decisions. Rather than ground pilots who fly without a chute ground the pilots that take rides up with thunderstorms local. I don't think any of this chute or no chute is culture, it is experience. The experiences you your side of the pond are different than the ones on this side. In my experiences as a line pilot, other than on the acro rides where it is not only the law but a great idea, I believe a chute would be more dangerous. Especially in 2-32 dual rides where you have two to verify each other's bad decision. I ALWAYS wear a chute when pleasure flying a glider, and almost never wear a chute when commercially flying a glider. I never wear a chute in a helicopter, in a cabin class twin... The right tool in the hands of the wrong person is more dangerous than no tool.

2G wrote on 8/14/2018 8:49 PM:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote on 8/13/2018 7:36 PM:
wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
Having a chute needing one not having one

Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.

Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.

I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.

In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were saved
by parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were saved
by seat belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a parachute,
because there is a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider, and I
don't want to lose any friends.

Correction: I do know a glider pilot that survived a car crash due to seat belts,
so the score is...

Parachutes: 7
Seat belts: 1

I was in a car crash and was wearing a sear belt. It was pretty dramatic: I slid under a moving semi at high velocity.


I did not recall that - when did it happen? Do you believe the seat belts saved
your life?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never deployed, but belt worked as they should.
Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive racing,application where they are mandated!
A single one.

Drawing a blank? There is a reason.
Rollcage, great belts, likely even HANS device makes a difference.

Am I against a chute?
Nope.
Have I thought I needed one?
Nope.
Would I love a chute when needed?
Absolutely!

I have had close calls in a gaggle and "may need a chute", but was wearing one, never had to use one.

I have done "at least hundreds" of rides and 8 years of instruction. Situational awareness helps, then again, there is the, "oh poop" situation, a chute may have been nice.

If someone wants a chute, I will NOT harass, but I weigh risk/benefit.

A 2-33, sucks for the ride, totally sucks for the rated pilot.

At 17:54 15 August 2018, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never
deployed,
but belt worked as they should.
Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive
racing,application where
they are mandated!
A single one.

Drawing a blank? There is a reason.
Rollcage, great belts, likely even HANS device makes a difference.

Am I against a chute?
Nope.
Have I thought I needed one?
Nope.
Would I love a chute when needed?
Absolutely!

I have had close calls in a gaggle and "may need a chute", but
was wearing
one, never had to use one.

I have done "at least hundreds" of rides and 8 years of instruction.
Situational awareness helps, then again, there is the, "oh poop"
situation,
a chute may have been nice.

If someone wants a chute, I will NOT harass, but I weigh
risk/benefit.

A 2-33, sucks for the ride, totally sucks for the rated pilot.


Strange to say this from this side of the pond but:-

If you have an incident and some lawyer can say "why didn't they
have parachutes",you might as well sell up right away and cut your
losses.Even if the 'chute would have made no difference, they will
still want a telephone number size payout.
We make our trial flights watch a 15mins safety video and wear a
parachute ,and brief them on how to use it.
No accidents on my watch is the rule,
over weight no
rain in sight no
guest has had a drink no
cloud base less than 2000ft agl no

wind over 20mph no
and there will be more, which is why we are taking bookings for
weekend trial lesson for 2019,because we are fully booked,not that
we fly that many, we keep canceling and re-booking .
Rant over, you shouldn't need to buy a 'chute till you buy your
glider.
Jon

Since this is sorta directed at me, and some others in this thread (especially in the US....).....

I have NEVER been against chutes for any flight.
Period.
Most of our training is in 2-33's, not good for the front seater, way worse for the rear seater (me for a decade or so....) regarding a chute.
No, don't bring up being in the dark ages on using a 2-33.......just, don't..........

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote on 8/15/2018 10:54 AM:
I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never deployed, but belt worked as they should.
Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive racing,application where they are mandated!
A single one.

Irrelevant question for most race cars, because the vehicles are so different:
race car drivers are belted in far more securely than occupants of a passenger
car, and the seats provide much more support. An airbag has nothing to offer in
that situation.

You might as well ask "if cup holders are so great, why don't race cars have them?"

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:41:46 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote on 8/15/2018 10:54 AM:
I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never deployed, but belt worked as they should.
Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive racing,application where they are mandated!
A single one.

Irrelevant question for most race cars, because the vehicles are so different:
race car drivers are belted in far more securely than occupants of a passenger
car, and the seats provide much more support. An airbag has nothing to offer in
that situation.

You might as well ask "if cup holders are so great, why don't race cars have them?"

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

I think that is actually the million dollar question. If cup holders are so great, why dont race cars have them? Anyone care to take a crack at it?

The airbag comment is interesting.
Several good quality studies have looked at the impact of airbags on deaths in motor vehicle accidents. The interesting statistics have to do with the use of seatbelts. Turns out that seatbelts are responsible for the reduction in deaths, not airbags. When not wearing seatbelts the airbags made no reduction in deaths.

wrote on 8/15/2018 1:11 PM:
The airbag comment is interesting. Several good quality studies have looked at
the impact of airbags on deaths in motor vehicle accidents. The interesting
statistics have to do with the use of seatbelts. Turns out that seatbelts are
responsible for the reduction in deaths, not airbags. When not wearing
seatbelts the airbags made no reduction in deaths.

Currently, airbags are designed to be used with seat belts, and it's well known
that airbags are ineffective for the unbelted occupant. There are plenty of
studies showing that when both are used, fatalities and injuries are reduced over
seat belt only use.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Airbags may be good for the first hit, but they're single use......so when you hit something, and THEN another thing, you're toast since the airbag has already been deployed.

As I stated before, I have no issues with chutes.
Never needed one, glad I had it in competitions.
I will NOT frown on someone that wants one.
Some ships make it a royal PITA to wear.