SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 8/9/2004 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Over and above that, I'm particularly interested in your take on the
air war, given that my father spent two years doing air-sea rescue
in the channel[1], much of the "custom" being US aircrews coming back
from the big daylight raids. They didn't get many Marauder survivors
though (nor many from Beaufighters - neither ditched well) and for
that reason alone rated those crews highly.

The reason there were so few Marauder suvivors is because the Marauder wouldn't
float for more that 20 seconds It would be at the bottom of the channel before
you could ever get to it. And it was not an easy plane to evacuate in 20

Same with the Beau, they said - big, heavy and the way out was underneath.
My father's line was "no-one got out of a Beau".

seconds. When we were came home from missions with damage we would all pray not
to have to ditch in the channel. As we crossed the French coast we would
strain to see the white cliffs of Dover.The most beautiful sight in the owrld.
That is where home was.

He talked about sitting in the channel and everybody in the boat /willing/
the returning planes over the cliffs, especially the cripples at the tail
end of the stream.
The worst ones for him - for all of them on the boats - were the planes
which crashed in on ditching, either flying down through the sea mist
or trying to land on it. Grim.

Your father was a hero. We all revered the work doine by air sea rescue.We
never needed them, but we were sure glad they were there below us waiting to
snatch us out of the sea..

He was always much prouder of the lives he saved - both in ASR and in the
Atlantic - than the ones he took. And I'd not argue with your description
of him.

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for coming over and helping this country and this continent.
Anything I can say is kind of inadequate thanks.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!

Sorry about your dad. But he will be remembered by you and the band of brothers
he flew with. And it is important to remember, Pity those who have nothing to
remember..They are the saddest of all.

Sailed with, in his case. Many of his friends flew (most of those who
did died, though - they were flying in '40 through to '42 when the
RAF was flying daylight intruder sweeps into France in Blenheims),
but he was navy: Atlantic convoys, channel gunboats and ASR,
south Atlantic convoys. A different kind of war from yours, but
probably as dangerous and tough. Keeping safe the ships which brought
you, the fuel for the planes - and, in the channel, trying to save
those whose planes came down.

One of his friends who flew is still alive though - I'm trying to persuade
him to get his memories recorded somehow (he was a navigator, first
in Blenheims, then Beaus, then Mosquitos).

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 8/9/2004 7:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 8/9/2004 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Over and above that, I'm particularly interested in your take on the
air war, given that my father spent two years doing air-sea rescue
in the channel[1], much of the "custom" being US aircrews coming back
from the big daylight raids. They didn't get many Marauder survivors
though (nor many from Beaufighters - neither ditched well) and for
that reason alone rated those crews highly.

The reason there were so few Marauder suvivors is because the Marauder
wouldn't
float for more that 20 seconds It would be at the bottom of the channel
before
you could ever get to it. And it was not an easy plane to evacuate in 20

Same with the Beau, they said - big, heavy and the way out was underneath.
My father's line was "no-one got out of a Beau".

seconds. When we were came home from missions with damage we would all pray
not
to have to ditch in the channel. As we crossed the French coast we would
strain to see the white cliffs of Dover.The most beautiful sight in the
owrld.
That is where home was.

He talked about sitting in the channel and everybody in the boat /willing/
the returning planes over the cliffs, especially the cripples at the tail
end of the stream.
The worst ones for him - for all of them on the boats - were the planes
which crashed in on ditching, either flying down through the sea mist
or trying to land on it. Grim.

Your father was a hero. We all revered the work doine by air sea rescue.We
never needed them, but we were sure glad they were there below us waiting
to
snatch us out of the sea..

He was always much prouder of the lives he saved - both in ASR and in the
Atlantic - than the ones he took. And I'd not argue with your description
of him.

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for coming over and helping this country and this continent.
Anything I can say is kind of inadequate thanks.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)


One of the things I came away with was a feeling that in some small way I wasa
part of England. Every time I return to Englasnd I feel as though it is a
small homecoming. BTW, there is a plaque at our old airifeld at Stansted
dedicated to the 344th Bomb Goup. Take a look at it if yuo are ever there. And
if you are so inclined you might want to place a small flower at the plaque.
Lest we forget.
Lest we forget.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 8/9/2004 7:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!

Sorry about your dad. But he will be remembered by you and the band of
brothers
he flew with. And it is important to remember, Pity those who have nothing
to
remember..They are the saddest of all.

Sailed with, in his case. Many of his friends flew (most of those who
did died, though - they were flying in '40 through to '42 when the
RAF was flying daylight intruder sweeps into France in Blenheims),
but he was navy: Atlantic convoys, channel gunboats and ASR,
south Atlantic convoys. A different kind of war from yours, but
probably as dangerous and tough. Keeping safe the ships which brought
you, the fuel for the planes - and, in the channel, trying to save
those whose planes came down.

One of his friends who flew is still alive though - I'm trying to persuade
him to get his memories recorded somehow (he was a navigator, first
in Blenheims, then Beaus, then Mosquitos).


Love to get him on here Keep working on him.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
small homecoming. BTW, there is a plaque at our old airifeld at Stansted
dedicated to the 344th Bomb Goup. Take a look at it if yuo are ever there. And
if you are so inclined you might want to place a small flower at the plaque.

I will do that.

--
Andy Breen ~ Solar Physics Group, UW Aberystwyth
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Silliness is the last refuge of the doomed: P. Opus

Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 8/9/2004 9:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Adrian"
Date: 8/8/2004 11:06 PM Pacific Standard Time

Ignore the trolls. I for one, always enjoy your tales. I wish more
veterans
did it. Keep it up

Thank you for the kind words. You will find that most who denigrate never
actually flew a mission or were even in combat. They just endlessley
quote what

Can I second Adrian's comments? It's important for as many people out
there as possible - most of them are 2 generations removed from what
Art and his comrades (and my father and /his/) went through - to
know that war is not something that happens on TV.

It is even more important that they get an honest view of the events--not
claims that his unit *never* missed its target (ludicrous), that he
gallantly went off to war while the Guard sat behind at its armories (a
patent falsehood), etc. So your second seems to be misdirected if you are
interested in gaining a truthful account; if on the other hand you want
fiction, Art is indeed your best source.

Brooks

snip further misdirected fawning


How would you know wannabee? If they want a good source that sure isn't you
hiding under your desk as the war raged. Have you no shame.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
Date: 8/9/2004 8:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
small homecoming. BTW, there is a plaque at our old airifeld at Stansted
dedicated to the 344th Bomb Goup. Take a look at it if yuo are ever there.
And
if you are so inclined you might want to place a small flower at the plaque.

I will do that.

--
Andy Breen ~ Solar Physics Group, UW Aberystwyth


And all of us at the 344th thank you. I will mention it at our next group
reunion which sadly may be our last..(sigh)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

There you go again Art-

Spouting off EXACTLY like the "titless WAF back at HQ making coffee"
wrapping yourself in the stolen war stories of your betters.

If it talks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck, and Quacks like a Duck . . . it
might not actually be a Duck, but you are sure doing a good impression of
the bragadocious little peacock with the big self esteem problem.

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 8/9/2004 6:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Ragnar"
Date: 8/9/2004 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Mike"
Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
missions.

And then talk about them for the next 60 years.


If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
Nobody
is
forcing you to.

To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.

I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
buried in
foreign graves.

As he again toodles out his attempt at wrapping himself in other men's
glory
in an attempt to claok himself from rebuke...makes you want to gag.

Brooks


What makes me want to gag is the fact that with all the bull**** you spew
you
never saw a second of combat, never fired a shot in anger, never faced an
enemy
for your country. You and your bull**** make me want to gag. Don't spew
your
crap about what war was like, You wouldn't know. So go back and hide
under
that desk you flew as you always did when men were fighting and dying for
their
country and you were nowhere to seen


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin:

Did we ever find out if Art was really the one posting those "adulation"
letters to himself with pseudonyms about 8 months back?

What are the odds he's up to his old tricks?

Do you remember who was the cyber-dude who tracked him down on this?
Something about tracking back hte headers of the posts . . . Maybe we could
bust him again.

Steve Swartz




"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 8/9/2004 9:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ArtKramr wrote:
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Adrian"
Date: 8/8/2004 11:06 PM Pacific Standard Time

Ignore the trolls. I for one, always enjoy your tales. I wish more
veterans
did it. Keep it up

Thank you for the kind words. You will find that most who denigrate
never
actually flew a mission or were even in combat. They just endlessley
quote what

Can I second Adrian's comments? It's important for as many people out
there as possible - most of them are 2 generations removed from what
Art and his comrades (and my father and /his/) went through - to
know that war is not something that happens on TV.

It is even more important that they get an honest view of the
events--not
claims that his unit *never* missed its target (ludicrous), that he
gallantly went off to war while the Guard sat behind at its armories (a
patent falsehood), etc. So your second seems to be misdirected if you
are
interested in gaining a truthful account; if on the other hand you want
fiction, Art is indeed your best source.

Brooks

snip further misdirected fawning


How would you know wannabee? If they want a good source that sure isn't
you
hiding under your desk as the war raged. Have you no shame.

You gotta find a new line--that one, being false (no surprise there--you
and
lies do have an ffinity for each other), is getting a bit old. And I note
that you have again ignored the refernece to your past false
claims....does
running away from them really work for you?

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Simcoe Warrior"
Date: 8/9/2004 11:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: SHUT UP !!! YOU'LL JINX THE MISSION !!!!
From: "Mike"
Date: 8/8/2004 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In other words shut your mouth and just fly your
missions.

And then talk about them for the next 60 years.


If you don't want to hear about them, then just don't read them.
Nobody
is
forcing you to.

To be fair, no one is forcing YOU to write them.

I am being forced to write them by men who I flew with who now lie
buried in
foreign graves.



Art, I am going to weigh in here for a moment. I've lurked in here for some
time and have always enjoyed your
firsthand accounts of being crewmember aboard a B-26. To be blunt, I am
appalled at the shoddy treatment
that you are recieving from a few useless tools in this group.

I don't know how old you are Art but I'm guessing I'm about 50 years younger
than you are so obviously
I wasn't around when WW2 was raging. But I can say this, the men that flew
bombers deserve to be recognized
at every opportunity for the incredible odds they faced both courageously
and willingly.

A relative of mine flew with 431 Squadron (RCAF) in Halifax bombers and
took off one night to bomb Hamburg and
was never seen nor heard from again. 60 years later we still don't know what
happened to him and the 6 other young
men that died with him. As I'm sure you know, as sad of story as this was,
it happened all the time, just like the training
accident that you mentioned in another thread.

After researching my relative I have become obsessed with the details of
bomber warfare and my research efforts have
revealed that there aren't alot of veterans of the war available online in
forums such as these. I don't understand why some people here fail to
realise what a great resource they have by you frequenting this group - talk
to the people that were there guys! The answers aren't all in books!

Anyway Art, I hope you will continue to entertain and educate us with your
tales, I believe I speak for the silent majority
on this matter.


Thank you so much. It is a lot of work doing all these posts and I am always
glad to hear when they are appreciated. I tend to ignore the bitter jealousy
of the wannabees. But I will keep writing as long as I know there are those
like you who like what I write, and we must never forget our absent friends.
They are the reason for it all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer