looking for advice on lead n follow flights

At 01:45 04 November 2018, wrote:

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In
m=
y experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly
x-co=
untry. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other
pi=
lots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that
a=
ll won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do
it
=
and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance.
I'd
=
like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual
inst=
ructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go
ou=
t there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in
challe=
nging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come
b=
ack, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and
follo=
w is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb


Worked for me Herb. Reckon you should leave out the H from IMHO. Your
opinion doesn't seem very humble most of the time.

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 4:00:05 AM UTC-6, Jim White wrote:
At 01:45 04 November 2018, wrote:

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In
m=
y experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly
x-co=
untry. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other
pi=
lots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that
a=
ll won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do
it
=
and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance.
I'd
=
like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual
inst=
ructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go
ou=
t there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in
challe=
nging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come
b=
ack, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and
follo=
w is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb


Worked for me Herb. Reckon you should leave out the H from IMHO. Your
opinion doesn't seem very humble most of the time.

Story of my life, Jim White. Always had a hard time with humble-ness, humblety, whatever. Queen says it well in Bohemian Rhapsody:

Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me

Sing along, everyone.

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 7:43:16 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Queen says it well in Bohemian Rhapsody:

Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me

Sing along, everyone.

Looking forward to the movie in a couple hours!!!!

Wife and I saw it Friday night, we loved it..... have fun.....

Worked for a recent US Nationals winner. Back about 20 years ago he headed out with me on a lead-and-follow. Being an experienced hang glider pilot and navy pilot, he understood the concept of loose formation flying. It was the first time he had seen the techniques all strung together on a task. Not a cure all, but by no means a waste of time.

P3

Well said!

For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
landing out occasionally.

On 11/3/2018 7:45 PM, wrote:

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb

--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:56 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well said!

For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
landing out occasionally.

Isn't it far easier to both sit in the same reasonable-performance two seater? You can't lose each other, the guy in back can shut up as much as he wants (safety pilot only) or give tips, or even maybe save the flight from time to time (e.g. if low in mountains and some precise close-in flying is needed)

Duos and DG1000s are fairly plentiful and perform as well as modern standard class, but Grobs will do the job (especially the original Twin Astir).

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:56 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Well said!

For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
landing out occasionally.

Isn't it far easier to both sit in the same reasonable-performance two seater? You can't lose each other, the guy in back can shut up as much as he wants (safety pilot only) or give tips, or even maybe save the flight from time to time (e.g. if low in mountains and some precise close-in flying is needed)

Duos and DG1000s are fairly plentiful and perform as well as modern standard class, but Grobs will do the job (especially the original Twin Astir).

This is exactly what the Cypress Soaring Club in Southern California does with our PW-6, and it works great. I had several long straight-out flights with either our instructors or highly experienced cross-country pilots, and then began to make my own long(ish) cross-country flights in my own ship. For folks who have spent most of their time hanging around in the local air, such experiences can be a real eye-opener as to the the actual performance available. We also use the straight-out flights as an opportunity to train club members the art and science of being part of a ground crew; a ground crew is required by the club for any cross-country attempts. Fun for all!

I will chime in with several authors. First as background, I have flown lead, I have followed as a fledgling, and lead from behind. Now that I am instructing I prefer the last. As somone said, none of these techniques will make a cross country pilot out of one that is not ready or willing. But that said, part of the goal is to make fledgling pilots more comfortable away from home. Or for that matter, make the next airport feel like home (and the next, and the next...).

My experience following as a student, you don't learn much, as you just follow. As has been said, you must focus on following so not to lose the leader. For the most part, the decisions are the leaders.

Leading from behind puts the onus of keeping the formation in the hands of the more experienced pilot. Pick a "private" frequency and a lot of coaching can happen. When the student heads out, it is to the wide blue yonder, not on the heels of the instructor.

I have the privlage of a partnership in a duo, and have done a number of 2 place XC instructional flights in that. For students that are going to do there first XC in club ships (1-34 or B-4 in our case) the duo has an issue as the performance is perceived as vastly greater that the club ships. So, while we got them away from home, there is this lingering thought that "sure we went XC, but it was in a DUO". Not as effective as going in their own ship.

Now there is a place for all of this, but each has different benafits.

Rick

Hi. A known reference in lead and follow flights is Klaus Ohlmann. You might wanna ask him his useful pieces of advice.