TOW PLANE Accident

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:24:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:03:11 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:27:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 6:59:06 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
My take after reading the NTSB report is the glider pilot looked away to adjust a GoPro, Got High on the tow early and drove the tug into the ground.
Does this sound correct?
God Damn it. These are easily preventable accidents.
Killing Tow Pilots like this is very bad form.
When I was towing I'd look pilots in the eye that I didn't know and say " If you get high on me your getting rope, immediately." Got it?

I will grant you, that is one terribly written report. It is hard to distinguish exactly who reported what and where the camera was. I THINK it is meant to read that the passenger comments, "he then looked away from the tow plane briefly to adjust a video camera. When he looked back toward the tow plane, he did not immediately see it but then noted that it was below and right of the glider." The report then states what the pilot reported? "Additionally, the flight instructor noticed slack in the tow rope that attached the glider to the tow plane. He then released the tow rope, turned the glider 180°, and landed uneventfully." I don't know because later it refers to the video that the pilot recorded...

If anything it's a good argument for a good liberal arts education regardless of career (you get to do plenty of writing that is read and critiqued by professors!).



I found the report to be clear and well written. This is one of the few NTSB glider accident reports in which most of us can read the report and know with high confidence what went wrong.

Your suggestion that it is probably the passenger's comment about looking away is just wacky when the opening sentence to that paragraph makes perfectly clear that it is comment from the pilot that is being reported.

Making judgements about accidents within the soaring community is critically important so that we have steerage for fixing things that aren't going well. This business of kiting on tow is one of those things that very much needs attention because it is killing people. Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine. When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned.

"Suggesting that we all put our head in the sand and proclaim that we don't know for sure is asinine." Brilliant and useful comment, personal attacks usually are. Kind of my point about this thread, so much of it is useless crap. IMO we haven't learned much about "When a fatal accident happens we all need to learn from that event whatever it is that needs to be learned" from this thread. For the most part, just a bunch of people spouting off emotionally. Fine if you see it differently, but nothing I've read in this thread is going to stop the next accident.
Anyway, we could also wait for someone who knows. Anyone who has looked at the video knows. Perhaps we tone it down so that someone feels like they can make a comment without getting flamed.

The problem with your comments and your point of view is that there are in fact very important takeaways from this accident and from the discussion of the accident. I think it is quite possible that the discussion here that emphasises the importance of glider pilot vigilance and avoiding all distractions during the first 600 feet of tow has the potential to critically influence someone that might otherwise be tempted to fiddle with his computer when he needs to focus on the towplane. It's possible that the discussion here will cause some operations to increase the length of the towrope which may have the potential to save a tuggies life one day. Then there is the discussion regarding the tow release problems that might ultimately save lives if the release hardware gets improved. There is also a worthy discussion as to whether we might make life safer for tow pilots if we primarily trained low tow (that one is not obvious, but needs consideration).

The son of the tow pilot in this accident posted on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Gliding/com...e_immediately/

OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect this?

T8

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes
based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect
this?

I doubt anyone would disagree with the "out of control" assertion; certainly
not me.

As to the trailing question, if we apply the concept "this" NOT to the "out of
control" bit, but to the "tow position" bit, then I suspect there may quite
possibly be some "useful insights" to be inferred from a "ballpark study" of
various countries' tow-fatalities-by-kiting rate.

I first learned of a fatal kiting crash ca. 1972 - before I obtained my
license - from a sheaf of Miles Coverdale's "Safety Corner" columns shoved at
me by my club's Chief Instructor, accompanied by a blunt, "Read these and tell
me what lesson your learn from them." The crash occurred at Heber City, UT,
ca. 1966...K-8 behind a Super Cub, IIRC. (I've become aware of a depressing
'minor stream' of 'em ever since.)

Terrified I wouldn't meet his expectations (he wasn't MY instructor), I read
the sheaf twice, all the while fretting I'd fail Jack's (the instructor) test.
Upon working up my nerve to return the handout, when Jack asked what I'd
learned, I (very tentatively) offered up words to the effect: Um...don't be
stupid? Most every crunch described seems-to-me to be mostly pilot error.
(Jack was pleased.)

Never seen any need to change that fundamental assessment.

That said, the only two countries known to me in which kiting fatalities have
occurred are the US and Great Britain (both 'above-the-wake' countries). I'm
unaware of any in Australia (Exclusively low tow?) or Germany/France (High
tow? Not every launch is by winch). I'm certainly open to further edification,
here.

With a nod to statistical analysis, I'm unconvinced *only* the US and Great
Britain train pilots who can't who can't remain in control while on high
tow...but I could be wrong! And - IF true - a complete absence of kiting
fatalities beginning from a position 'below the wake' *might* mean more than
'the US and Great Britain have a training/PIC problem no other countries' have.

I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I regarding
tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND someone's
'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in such safety data'
take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

Bob W.

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I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I regarding
tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND someone's
'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in such safety data'
take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

Bob W.

Hi Bob,

I can't provide any 'aerotow fatality history data' but the tow position we were taught in Germany was 'keep the wheels of the tow-plane on the horizon'. I towed behind a Taylorcraft Auster, Pa-18, Morane Ralley, Remoquer DR400, etc. and it always worked well for me - and the tow pilot. The tow ropes were always 60+m.

Uli
'AS'

On 3/12/2019 7:55 PM, AS wrote:

I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I
regarding tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND
someone's 'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in
such safety data' take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

snip...

I can't provide any 'aerotow fatality history data' but the tow position we
were taught in Germany was 'keep the wheels of the tow-plane on the
horizon'. I towed behind a Taylorcraft Auster, Pa-18, Morane Ralley,
Remoquer DR400, etc. and it always worked well for me - and the tow pilot.
The tow ropes were always 60+m.

Thanks for the feedback!

Since this thread seems 'to have natural drift' (kinda like some glider pilots
when towing!), indulge another anecdotal input.

'Somewhen along the line' I towed in a lightish glider behind a significantly
more powerful/new-type-to-me tug. The sight picture minorly flummoxed me for a
bit, to the point where I had time to ponder 'the weird intermittent
vibration' I'd not before noticed in the ship. It was the wake, of course, a
fact I proved to myself by 'vertically messing about with it' by way of
establishing 'that tug's proper sight picture.'

The (one) time (on a BFR) I messed about with 'below the wake' towing, it was
immediately obvious when one's sight picture 'needed vertical refinement' from
the empennage entering the wake as one 'drifted too high.' Too low, and
'visual alarm' and a crick in one's neck were obvious telltales!

Bob W.

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Yep Australia is exclusively low tow, with a couple of rare types with a belly hook only that must use high, the Diamant comes to mind.
Whilst I can understand kiting from a belly hook, I would have thought a nose hook would be better in this aspect. For many years the GFA made nose hooks mandatory on all imported gliders.
Ive just recently done my first few tows on a belly hook, as my glider (DG202-17C) has no nose hook, and $5K au seems excessive. No issues so far.
From below the wake you have much more time to prevent a kiting incident before it gets serious, and the tug disappears below the nose.
I stay as low as possible after liftoff (top of tug fin height) and wait until the tug climbs above me, then follow in station. Ive never got even above the wake, as
the turbulence clearly unmissable indicates the out of position, as opposed to high tow, where the air you kite into is no different, giving no warning.
Twice I have released the tow at low level, once thru tug fuel runout, and once where I got higher than I liked, and when I couldn’t be sure I could get back in station in time for the tow plane
to safely take off. In both cases, the tug pilots said it would probably have been ok, but thanked me for making sure.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......
First mandate that pilots pay attention. The kiting accidents and recreations indicate once kite acceleration starts the game is lost. Doesn't matter what tow position you start from. Tow position is a scapegoat for pilot inattention.

Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
It’s simple physics for goodness sake.