TOW PLANE Accident

OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect this?

T8

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes
based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect
this?

I doubt anyone would disagree with the "out of control" assertion; certainly
not me.

As to the trailing question, if we apply the concept "this" NOT to the "out of
control" bit, but to the "tow position" bit, then I suspect there may quite
possibly be some "useful insights" to be inferred from a "ballpark study" of
various countries' tow-fatalities-by-kiting rate.

I first learned of a fatal kiting crash ca. 1972 - before I obtained my
license - from a sheaf of Miles Coverdale's "Safety Corner" columns shoved at
me by my club's Chief Instructor, accompanied by a blunt, "Read these and tell
me what lesson your learn from them." The crash occurred at Heber City, UT,
ca. 1966...K-8 behind a Super Cub, IIRC. (I've become aware of a depressing
'minor stream' of 'em ever since.)

Terrified I wouldn't meet his expectations (he wasn't MY instructor), I read
the sheaf twice, all the while fretting I'd fail Jack's (the instructor) test.
Upon working up my nerve to return the handout, when Jack asked what I'd
learned, I (very tentatively) offered up words to the effect: Um...don't be
stupid? Most every crunch described seems-to-me to be mostly pilot error.
(Jack was pleased.)

Never seen any need to change that fundamental assessment.

That said, the only two countries known to me in which kiting fatalities have
occurred are the US and Great Britain (both 'above-the-wake' countries). I'm
unaware of any in Australia (Exclusively low tow?) or Germany/France (High
tow? Not every launch is by winch). I'm certainly open to further edification,
here.

With a nod to statistical analysis, I'm unconvinced *only* the US and Great
Britain train pilots who can't who can't remain in control while on high
tow...but I could be wrong! And - IF true - a complete absence of kiting
fatalities beginning from a position 'below the wake' *might* mean more than
'the US and Great Britain have a training/PIC problem no other countries' have.

I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I regarding
tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND someone's
'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in such safety data'
take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

Bob W.

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I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I regarding
tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND someone's
'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in such safety data'
take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

Bob W.

Hi Bob,

I can't provide any 'aerotow fatality history data' but the tow position we were taught in Germany was 'keep the wheels of the tow-plane on the horizon'. I towed behind a Taylorcraft Auster, Pa-18, Morane Ralley, Remoquer DR400, etc. and it always worked well for me - and the tow pilot. The tow ropes were always 60+m.

Uli
'AS'

On 3/12/2019 7:55 PM, AS wrote:

I'd love to be further educated by those more knowledgeable than I
regarding tow-position-methodology taught in Germany and France, AND
someone's 'reasonably-knowledgeable-thanks-to-longer-term-interest in
such safety data' take on Germsny's/France's aerotow fatality histories.

snip...

I can't provide any 'aerotow fatality history data' but the tow position we
were taught in Germany was 'keep the wheels of the tow-plane on the
horizon'. I towed behind a Taylorcraft Auster, Pa-18, Morane Ralley,
Remoquer DR400, etc. and it always worked well for me - and the tow pilot.
The tow ropes were always 60+m.

Thanks for the feedback!

Since this thread seems 'to have natural drift' (kinda like some glider pilots
when towing!), indulge another anecdotal input.

'Somewhen along the line' I towed in a lightish glider behind a significantly
more powerful/new-type-to-me tug. The sight picture minorly flummoxed me for a
bit, to the point where I had time to ponder 'the weird intermittent
vibration' I'd not before noticed in the ship. It was the wake, of course, a
fact I proved to myself by 'vertically messing about with it' by way of
establishing 'that tug's proper sight picture.'

The (one) time (on a BFR) I messed about with 'below the wake' towing, it was
immediately obvious when one's sight picture 'needed vertical refinement' from
the empennage entering the wake as one 'drifted too high.' Too low, and
'visual alarm' and a crick in one's neck were obvious telltales!

Bob W.

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https://www.avg.com

Yep Australia is exclusively low tow, with a couple of rare types with a belly hook only that must use high, the Diamant comes to mind.
Whilst I can understand kiting from a belly hook, I would have thought a nose hook would be better in this aspect. For many years the GFA made nose hooks mandatory on all imported gliders.
Ive just recently done my first few tows on a belly hook, as my glider (DG202-17C) has no nose hook, and $5K au seems excessive. No issues so far.
From below the wake you have much more time to prevent a kiting incident before it gets serious, and the tug disappears below the nose.
I stay as low as possible after liftoff (top of tug fin height) and wait until the tug climbs above me, then follow in station. Ive never got even above the wake, as
the turbulence clearly unmissable indicates the out of position, as opposed to high tow, where the air you kite into is no different, giving no warning.
Twice I have released the tow at low level, once thru tug fuel runout, and once where I got higher than I liked, and when I couldn’t be sure I could get back in station in time for the tow plane
to safely take off. In both cases, the tug pilots said it would probably have been ok, but thanked me for making sure.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......
First mandate that pilots pay attention. The kiting accidents and recreations indicate once kite acceleration starts the game is lost. Doesn't matter what tow position you start from. Tow position is a scapegoat for pilot inattention.

Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
It’s simple physics for goodness sake.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 7:10:12 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
It’s simple physics for goodness sake.

Somewhere (in this thread iirc) is a report on simulating kiting accidents at altitude and low tow being no better. As for citing a real world low tow tug upset I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any. Not due to increased safety of low tow but due to how universal high tow is. And if there is one I'm sure the evangelical lowtowers would claim the pilot got high first. The lazy procedural golden bullet isn't the answer, the answer is paying attention for five minutes.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 7:10:12 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Name one case of kiting occouring from low tow. I can’t recall a single incident here, where we only use low tow.
It’s simple physics for goodness sake.

You've made it perfectly clear that you don't understand the physics.

It's all been covered.

READ.

T8