Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

First questions nobody asked.......
Where are you flying?
How serious?

I can only comment on 20's........
20a, fantastic flaps......early flying season, come in very high on final, do full landing flaps and full dive brakes.......drops like a homesick brick.......
But, elevator is not auto connect.......know of a ship trashed because of this.
A 20A or C, limited to 9pounds..........fine if eastern thermals. Screwed if fast conditions.
Sucks to western thermals or ridge......trust me, I have been beat in eastern ridge in a nationals......I had local knowledge so made time on gap climbs, watched heavier gliders run by on long ridge runs. Yes, ran against "DG in a LS6" and,others.
Flying ridges or western thermals, maybe a 20B.
All the 20's can be helped with winglets.
I have my preference, but I am biased partly because I was "beta boy" on lots of testing for 20 and 24 winglets.

In your price range.....I will say a standard AS ship......partly because if you learned on a SGS, control harmony is similar.
I can't state for other glass single seaters.......

As stated before, in your price range, a flapped ship is likely borderline a rat.
Bad?.......ask Daniel on his performance on a "rat ship" I know of last year.
Crazed surface THAT IS SMOOTH can do well.
Most of a result is the "nut behind the stick".

Just my opinion.
Best I ever did was first page on the SSA ranking list.
I won't say I am a "mover or shaker"....,,

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:11:36 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
First questions nobody asked.......
Where are you flying?
How serious?

I can only comment on 20's........
20a, fantastic flaps......early flying season, come in very high on final, do full landing flaps and full dive brakes.......drops like a homesick brick.......
But, elevator is not auto connect.......know of a ship trashed because of this.
A 20A or C, limited to 9pounds..........fine if eastern thermals. Screwed if fast conditions.
Sucks to western thermals or ridge......trust me, I have been beat in eastern ridge in a nationals......I had local knowledge so made time on gap climbs, watched heavier gliders run by on long ridge runs. Yes, ran against "DG in a LS6" and,others.
Flying ridges or western thermals, maybe a 20B.
All the 20's can be helped with winglets.
I have my preference, but I am biased partly because I was "beta boy" on lots of testing for 20 and 24 winglets.

In your price range.....I will say a standard AS ship......partly because if you learned on a SGS, control harmony is similar.
I can't state for other glass single seaters.......

As stated before, in your price range, a flapped ship is likely borderline a rat.
Bad?.......ask Daniel on his performance on a "rat ship" I know of last year.
Crazed surface THAT IS SMOOTH can do well.
Most of a result is the "nut behind the stick".

Yep, agreed I am a nut :-)
How serious? I don't know yet, to be honest. I'd like to compete in club class when I have some time built up.
I can't afford to buy or sell gliders over and over, so my intent is "best bang for the buck" and flapped for the short field landing capabilities. I'm not afraid of the workload of flaps, as I noted I have some hours in Mooney's and other complex high performance aircraft that require concentration and planning especially on approach to land.

I will be flying mountain, as I am part time in Utah. I learned out of Minden, flying wave and mountain.
I had heard that the ASW20 (a-c) were good for mountains due to the semi-flexible wing design?

Thanks for any further feedback...
Mike

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:27:41 PM UTC-7, Michael N. wrote:
On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 12:11:36 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
First questions nobody asked.......
Where are you flying?
How serious?

I can only comment on 20's........
20a, fantastic flaps......early flying season, come in very high on final, do full landing flaps and full dive brakes.......drops like a homesick brick.......
But, elevator is not auto connect.......know of a ship trashed because of this.
A 20A or C, limited to 9pounds..........fine if eastern thermals. Screwed if fast conditions.
Sucks to western thermals or ridge......trust me, I have been beat in eastern ridge in a nationals......I had local knowledge so made time on gap climbs, watched heavier gliders run by on long ridge runs. Yes, ran against "DG in a LS6" and,others.
Flying ridges or western thermals, maybe a 20B.
All the 20's can be helped with winglets.
I have my preference, but I am biased partly because I was "beta boy" on lots of testing for 20 and 24 winglets.

In your price range.....I will say a standard AS ship......partly because if you learned on a SGS, control harmony is similar.
I can't state for other glass single seaters.......

As stated before, in your price range, a flapped ship is likely borderline a rat.
Bad?.......ask Daniel on his performance on a "rat ship" I know of last year.
Crazed surface THAT IS SMOOTH can do well.
Most of a result is the "nut behind the stick".

Yep, agreed I am a nut :-)
How serious? I don't know yet, to be honest. I'd like to compete in club class when I have some time built up.
I can't afford to buy or sell gliders over and over, so my intent is "best bang for the buck" and flapped for the short field landing capabilities. I'm not afraid of the workload of flaps, as I noted I have some hours in Mooney's and other complex high performance aircraft that require concentration and planning especially on approach to land.

I will be flying mountain, as I am part time in Utah. I learned out of Minden, flying wave and mountain.
I had heard that the ASW20 (a-c) were good for mountains due to the semi-flexible wing design?

Thanks for any further feedback...
Mike

Please take all our suggestions as constructive. Doing this in two steps as others suggest may prevent a big surprise.
Mooneys aren't generally flown in steep turns at close to stall.
You will be flying a Ventus A/B or an ASW20 in those conditions, and in rough air!
If you let a Ventus A/B or ASW20 without winglets stall in a thermal it will get your attention in a hurry. It really would be best to do that after getting more experience.
When looking at performance figures only, you'll wonder why people pay so much for newer generation gliders. Much of their performance is due to user-friendliness.
Winglets, it seems especially the higher aspect ratio ones, make low speed flying more stable. A friend dinged one of his Maughmer winglets and flew the 20 without them while it was being fixed. With many hours in that glider he didn't like it.
Jim

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 1:58:01 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
Please take all our suggestions as constructive. Doing this in two steps as others suggest may prevent a big surprise.
Mooneys aren't generally flown in steep turns at close to stall.
You will be flying a Ventus A/B or an ASW20 in those conditions, and in rough air!
If you let a Ventus A/B or ASW20 without winglets stall in a thermal it will get your attention in a hurry. It really would be best to do that after getting more experience.
When looking at performance figures only, you'll wonder why people pay so much for newer generation gliders. Much of their performance is due to user-friendliness.
Winglets, it seems especially the higher aspect ratio ones, make low speed flying more stable. A friend dinged one of his Maughmer winglets and flew the 20 without them while it was being fixed. With many hours in that glider he didn't like it.
Jim

I definitely value the opinions being shared here.
Everyone here is likely a better, more experienced glider guider than I am. I really do appreciate the wisdom and suggestions.
So I am going to take a step back and add to my considerations, standard class gliders.
I do have the concern of buying something and then re-selling to upgrade later. I'm going into retirement shortly, and will have a nice income, but still a limited income for larger purchases. I'll never be in the position of being able to afford anything over $50k, and even that unlikely.

I was going to try and get the Pegasus or Pik 20 (I forget which) the the soaring museum had listed at a very good price around 13k but I missed that opportunity.

So maybe I should look at an ASW19 or similar. Seem like an LS4 is out of my price range.