Obsolete weapons

In message , u don't have to
know writes
What happen to obsolete weapons as AIM-7 Sparrow which have been replaced by
AIM-120 ?
Destroyed or stored ?

Expended downrange, in a lot of cases. "Okay, it's going to cost X money
to have these 84mm HEAT rounds scrapped, they're at the end of their
working life and only a few backwater Territorial Army units still use
them. What do we do with them? Okay, I guess some TA units get to
live-fire their 84mm Carl Gustavs then..."

Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds
and sort-of-orders not to return any...


It's generally cheaper to fire off LIFEX ammo than to safely scrap it.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...

Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds
and sort-of-orders not to return any...

How's your hearing now, anyway?

Scott

In message , Scott
MacEachern writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds
and sort-of-orders not to return any...

How's your hearing now, anyway?

Poor.

Probably more to do with too many 7.62mm blank and occasional
thunderflashes indoors with no hearing protection, than with a few 84mm
rounds fired while wearing ear defenders over ear plugs.

(Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that
could get _loud_ in a hurry)


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Scott
MacEachern writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds
and sort-of-orders not to return any...

How's your hearing now, anyway?

Poor.

Probably more to do with too many 7.62mm blank and occasional
thunderflashes indoors with no hearing protection, than with a few 84mm
rounds fired while wearing ear defenders over ear plugs.

(Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that
could get _loud_ in a hurry)

I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

John Keeney wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

In message , Scott
MacEachern writes

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
. ..


Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds
and sort-of-orders not to return any...

How's your hearing now, anyway?

Poor.

Probably more to do with too many 7.62mm blank and occasional
thunderflashes indoors with no hearing protection, than with a few 84mm
rounds fired while wearing ear defenders over ear plugs.

(Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that
could get _loud_ in a hurry)


I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.


Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a couple
thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a pound
and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards...

--
Marc Reeve
Some guy at a desk somewhere ^reverse^ for email

I can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards...

huh? What did he say? What?

Gordon
2,000 helo flight hours -- nuf said about hearing loss! :\
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

"Marc Reeve" wrote in message
...
John Keeney wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

(Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that
could get _loud_ in a hurry)

I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of
firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching
charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to
come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple
thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a
pound
and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I
can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards...

Mine are in. Seems some units consider them an option that they
hope they won't exercise: the tactical clues from unplugged ears
being more important to their lives than good hearing down the road.

In message , Marc Reeve
writes
John Keeney wrote:
I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think
of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices
involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years,
without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form
of ear guards...

Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

(You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.)

Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing
7.62mm should date my experience


Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon
commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should
simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we
cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to
clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going,
can't you?)

Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs,
snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"...
as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu!
Enemy, stairs!"

Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of
choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank
rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an
all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in
upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits.
Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated.

Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be
avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock
up, why repeat old ones?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

I wonder how much earplugs actually hurt communication in OUBA.

I know that on my motorcycle, while wearing earplugs under my helmet
means I can't hear subtle changes in engine noise, if I don't have
them in I'm noticeably more fatigued and less alert after as little as
15 minutes. I could easily imagine that the slight decrease in
hearing on average could be outweighed by the large increase in
hearing during the five seconds after shots being fired.

-jake

"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Marc Reeve
writes
John Keeney wrote:
I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think
of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices
involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years,
without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form
of ear guards...

Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

(You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.)

Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing
7.62mm should date my experience

Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon
commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should
simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we
cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to
clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going,
can't you?)

Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs,
snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"...
as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu!
Enemy, stairs!"

Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of
choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank
rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an
all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in
upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits.
Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated.

Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be
avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock
up, why repeat old ones?

I recall a similar scene in the german film "Stalingrad". They're clearing an
apartment building going floor to floor, but unfortunately two groups come around a
corner/top and bottom of stairs (I forget which) at the same time. Newbie shoots
and is feeling good that he's got them before they get him, then realizes that his
now dead target is wearing feldgrau, and is pretty disturbed. Old head looks at
him as he comes up, quickly sizes up the situation and casually says something
like, "Ach, don't worry about it. Same thing happened to me my first time," and
then moves past to continue the clearance.

Guy