Obsolete weapons

In message , Marc Reeve
writes
John Keeney wrote:
I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think
of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices
involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years,
without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form
of ear guards...

Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

(You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.)

Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing
7.62mm should date my experience


Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon
commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should
simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we
cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to
clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going,
can't you?)

Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs,
snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"...
as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu!
Enemy, stairs!"

Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of
choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank
rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an
all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in
upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits.
Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated.

Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be
avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock
up, why repeat old ones?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

I wonder how much earplugs actually hurt communication in OUBA.

I know that on my motorcycle, while wearing earplugs under my helmet
means I can't hear subtle changes in engine noise, if I don't have
them in I'm noticeably more fatigued and less alert after as little as
15 minutes. I could easily imagine that the slight decrease in
hearing on average could be outweighed by the large increase in
hearing during the five seconds after shots being fired.

-jake

In article ,
(Jake McGuire) wrote:

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

I wonder how much earplugs actually hurt communication in OUBA.

I know that on my motorcycle, while wearing earplugs under my helmet
means I can't hear subtle changes in engine noise, if I don't have
them in I'm noticeably more fatigued and less alert after as little as
15 minutes. I could easily imagine that the slight decrease in
hearing on average could be outweighed by the large increase in
hearing during the five seconds after shots being fired.


I have electronic earmuffs that allow (can even enhance) normal
hearing, but cut loud noises with an electronic limiter.

I have seen the same thing available in custom made earplugs
looking similar to a hearing aid.

Thus the issue looks less a problem today than in times past.
Ain't engineering great?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Marc Reeve
writes
John Keeney wrote:
I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think
of firing
inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls &
floors).
I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week
in just those circumstances.
The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges,
SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you
did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your
ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor".
All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come.

Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a
couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices
involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years,
without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form
of ear guards...

Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in
FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a
lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands
from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place.
So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to
keep control of your fireteam during the action.

(You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.)

Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing
7.62mm should date my experience

Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon
commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should
simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we
cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to
clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going,
can't you?)

Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs,
snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"...
as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu!
Enemy, stairs!"

Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of
choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank
rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an
all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in
upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits.
Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated.

Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be
avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock
up, why repeat old ones?

I recall a similar scene in the german film "Stalingrad". They're clearing an
apartment building going floor to floor, but unfortunately two groups come around a
corner/top and bottom of stairs (I forget which) at the same time. Newbie shoots
and is feeling good that he's got them before they get him, then realizes that his
now dead target is wearing feldgrau, and is pretty disturbed. Old head looks at
him as he comes up, quickly sizes up the situation and casually says something
like, "Ach, don't worry about it. Same thing happened to me my first time," and
then moves past to continue the clearance.

Guy

Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.

Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.

Such mufflers are rather expensive, of course, and I can
understand that poor armies, resistance fighters and such
can't afford them. But to hi-tech armies that actually are
currently engaged in FIBUA, like the US one, damaging the
hearing of its soldiers seems much less affordable than
getting another piece of fancy kit.

And it's not just about hearing protection. A soldier
with his ears ringing after eg fireing his weapon within
a confined space without hearing protection, will have
immediately, but temporarily, much degraded hearing. And
a soldier subject to a very loud noise, like a nearby
explosion, may loose his hearing immediately and completely
for some time. Thus, I'd assume that active mufflers would
enhance the ability to sustain FIBUA, much for the same
reasons that non-active hearing protection, like simple
plugs, might impair the ability to do FIBUA, at least initially,
ie before the soldiers being subject to damaging noise levels.

Moreover, shouldn't practically all modern military helmets
be designed to be compatible with low-profile ear cups,
and vice versa? So why not use them?

Not only do electronic ear mufflers allow non-damaging
sounds to pass, but the amplification can be adjusted, so
that quiet sounds are enhanced. Coupled to a directonal
microphone (and especially with a parabolic antenna), even
very quiet sounds can be heard over considerable distances,
which could sometimes, in special circumstances, be useful.

Plugging one's radio output to the ear muffs, the voice
com will be much easier to hear in a noisy environment, as
the mufflers can be used to cut the background noise. In a
quiet environment, stealthiness might improve slightly too,
as even less received voice com would escape the muffs than
a simple unshielded head-set.

Or is there somehting that I miss? Is, after all, some
essential information lost when the sound passes through
the artificial, but hopefully hi-fi, electronics before
reaching the ear? The muffs do conserve stereophonic
(directional) info of course, but is there eg problems
due to the disparity between the artificial sound from
the muffs vs the sound propagating through the bones?
That one can't adapt to with training?

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.

Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.

Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.

Brooks

snip

In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes:

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.

Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.

Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.

The size of the muffs is a problem as well. If I'm shooting a small
rifle, like an M-16 or Mini-14, the shell of the muff is resting on
the stock, and all of the sound goes to my right ear (and jaw) by this
direct contact. No amount of noise-cancelling gizmos can fix that.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.

Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.

Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.


I've been using Peltor electronic ears for over a year and they work great,
but they are too big for some applications.
OTOH, I have seen the same principle in a hearing-aid sized device that
fits into the ear with custom earpieces.
These electronic ears don't seem to clip too much off the normal hearing,
just the peaks.

I did a program the year before last that needed to use LiMnO2 and
LiSO2 batteries. Found out that the US Army is the world's biggest
user of batteries.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

In article ,
(Harry Andreas) wrote:


I did a program the year before last that needed to use LiMnO2 and
LiSO2 batteries. Found out that the US Army is the world's biggest
user of batteries.


In other words, assault is impossible without battery.

Howard Berkowitz wrote:
In article ,
(Harry Andreas) wrote:


I did a program the year before last that needed to use LiMnO2 and
LiSO2 batteries. Found out that the US Army is the world's biggest
user of batteries.



In other words, assault is impossible without battery.

"The scramble to find batteries and get them to troops fighting in
Operation Iraqi Freedom is leading to a policy review of
non-rechargeable batteries, as well as an examination of alternative
power sources, such as fuel cells and solar panels.

Inadequate inventories of military batteries almost led U.S. forces to
cease operations or alter tactics during Operation Iraqi Freedom. But
several U.S. manufacturers helped avert a potential crisis by slowly
replenishing stocks of the non-rechargeable BA 5990 battery, said a Navy
official.

Navy Capt. Clark Driscoll, the Defense Contract Management Agency
liaison to the Joint Staff, said lack of funding had left the inventory
of BA 5590s in “bad shape for a long time.”

The BA 5590 is the military’s most widely used portable power source,
operating a variety of communications devices.

“We literally [came] within days of running out of these batteries—where
major combat operations would either have ceased or changed in their
character because of the lack of battery support,” Driscoll said in
remarks to the Tri-Service Power Expo, in Norfolk, Va."

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...le.cfm?id=1190