China to acquire Backfires?

Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)

The same cannot be said for China.

Yet, but then it couldn't be said for Japan either for ca. 30 years after WW2.
They started out at the low end, as did e.g. South Korea and Taiwan, and built
up their industrial infrastructure and design abilities until their products
were able to compete on a world stage. I expect China will follow a similar
arc - as it is, chances are pretty good that any plush toy or piece of clothing
you might buy was made in the PRC.

Guy

In article ,
Guy Alcala wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.


Simply making cheap quality goods doesn't equate to
copying/counterfeiting.

Are you saying that after WWII, Japan was the world's biggest infringer
of counterfeiting other peoples' work and/or goods?



Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)

The same cannot be said for China.

Yet, but then it couldn't be said for Japan either for ca. 30 years after
WW2.
They started out at the low end, as did e.g. South Korea and Taiwan,


Again, you're response continues to ignore the main thrust of my point
and that point is not that China makes cheap quality stuff. My point is
that China steals (something like 90% of all software, music, and
videos) are ripped off copies.


built
up their industrial infrastructure and design abilities until their products
were able to compete on a world stage.


A country's products will never be able to compete on a world stage if
that country cannot or will not innovate. As an IT professional, I can
say China hasn't produced a single piece of hardware or software that
any network or IT professional would even remotely consider
deploying...although that doesn't stop them from bootlegging everybody
else's work.

I expect China will follow a similar
arc - as it is, chances are pretty good that any plush toy or piece of
clothing
you might buy was made in the PRC.

Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.


--Mike

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:47:56 GMT, Michael Wise wrote:

Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.

You come across as a racist bigot.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:


Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.

You come across as a racist bigot.


Race has nothing to do with it. Everything I've said about China is
true. If you disagree, then please point out where you feel I'm
incorrect instead of slamming down a tired ol' race card.



--Mike

Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
Guy Alcala wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

Simply making cheap quality goods doesn't equate to
copying/counterfeiting.

Are you saying that after WWII, Japan was the world's biggest infringer
of counterfeiting other peoples' work and/or goods?

Beats me. ISTR a fair number of big-name knock-offs, but that could be my memory
playing me false. But as to copying what others designed, oh yeah, they were
accused of that, going back at least into the 1920s. There was some truth to that,
as well as a large dose of racism involved -- see US and British attitudes towards
Japanese a/c and ship designs prior to WW2. The Japanese undoubtedly borrowed a
lot of ideas from others, but they modified them to suit their own needs and added
some of their own ideas.

Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)

The same cannot be said for China.

Yet, but then it couldn't be said for Japan either for ca. 30 years after
WW2.
They started out at the low end, as did e.g. South Korea and Taiwan,

Again, you're response continues to ignore the main thrust of my point
and that point is not that China makes cheap quality stuff. My point is
that China steals (something like 90% of all software, music, and
videos) are ripped off copies.

And if power revolved around software, music and videos, I'd be fairly concerned.
Granted, software piracy can be a serious matter, but music and videos are
entertainment. Costly losses to the people involved, but hardly strategic issues.

built
up their industrial infrastructure and design abilities until their products
were able to compete on a world stage.

A country's products will never be able to compete on a world stage if
that country cannot or will not innovate. As an IT professional, I can
say China hasn't produced a single piece of hardware or software that
any network or IT professional would even remotely consider
deploying...although that doesn't stop them from bootlegging everybody
else's work.

Then they will stagnate and only provide cheap labor for manufacturing. But given
China's history of trading and invention, I expect them to follow the Japanese
path. And it's not as if Japan is a world leader in innovative products; they have
certainly established a niche especially in consumer electronics, but most of their
commercial success has been by making high quality but otherwise conventional
products (generally at lower prices, although that's changing) that any
industrialised society could manufacture. Is a Lexus more technically innovative
than a BMW? No, but it tends to be put together better, and generally costs less.
By and large Japan's forte remains incremental improvement and constant refinement
of well-made but conventional products. For every innovative company like Honda or
Sony, you've got quite a few more Toyotas or Nissans. And unless things have
changed, much of Honda's advanced project design work is done in California.

I expect China will follow a similar
arc - as it is, chances are pretty good that any plush toy or piece of
clothing
you might buy was made in the PRC.

Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.

I've lived in the East Bay all my life, and went to public school with the sort of
ethnic mix typical in the Bay Area -- my first girlfriend was Chinese/Japanese as
far as her grandparents went. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with
being able to discern Chinese products and services. As far as products go,
reading "Made in China" on the label seems to work adequately for me. I'm unclear
on just what you're trying to do with this skill -- are you carrying out a personal
boycott of Chinese goods and services for political/economic reasons, or is there
some other reason for your avoidance?

Guy

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:19:01 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote:
Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

And in the 70s and 80s they said the same things about Hong Kong.
Now it's China's turn.

I wonder who'll be next? India?


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

phil hunt wrote:

Some people wrote ;

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

And in the 70s and 80s they said the same things about Hong Kong.
Now it's China's turn.

I wonder who'll be next? India?

Been there ( Bombay - Mumbai ) - done that.

India has great aspirations.

Trouble is - they keep thinking they know better than us ( westerners ). In the UK, the BBC
produced a hilarious sitcom called the Kumars at #42 ( number 42 - street number - we don't
have like 2062 street numbers in the UK ).

The programme made a certain amount of fun of the Indian self-obseession with being right
about everything. That might sound racist. Funny thing is - it was immigrant Indians who
loved it best ! They just found it so funny to see this side of them revealed in its true
glory.

( a bit like - the best jewish jokes are told by jews )

Advice - getting any task acheived in India is measured in units of 3 months. It doesn't take
3 months of course. I takes 1 month to talk about it - 1 month for the Indians to say the
project was delayed for unknown / unspecified reasons - a bit more to explain it was delayed
a bit more - then it gets done ( normally a month late ) in a few weeks.

Oh - and it gets done with errors.

The errors are the fault of *someone else* of course ( Indians are always right ) . If
pressed - the spec will be examined to the bone - criticised and the client told they were
wrong.

*Real story* - a ( very competent ) friend of mine was pressed into agreeing to work with an
Indian sub-contractor on a software project ( Indians are meant to be good at software ).

I warned him about the tricks they play - and - sure enough - he had every single one pulled
on him. The Indian company finally managed to conspire to convince his employer to relieve
him of the project !

My advice - don't touch India with a bargepole.

The Chinese are far more co-operative. I suspect that they are sensible enought to realise
that *don't* know better than us and want to learn - at which point we become redundant !


Graham