Blackbird v. Mig-25

Tom Cooper wrote:

Besides, when you state that the MiG-25 or MiG-31 have had such an "impact"
on US planing that the SR-71 was retired, why don't you then also explain
about the impact of the F-14 on further developments of MiG-25s?

Because we are talking about SR-71 and MiG-25. We can also talk about
the impact of the MiG-25 on the development of the F-14, but this
wouldn't really have anything to do with SR-71, would it?


Namely, this was stopped on a direct order from Moscow after a second
Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs on testing in Iraq was shot down by Iranian F-14s
(using "non-operational" AIM-54s) - in 1987.

If you want to talk about the F-14, then, perhaps, you should start
another thread, unless, of course, your intention is to shift the topic
of this discussion to the Iran-Iraq war (during which there were no
verifiable MiG-25 kills by the F-14 - just a lot of claims by the
glorious Iranian AF. One MiG-25RB was downed by an Iranian Hawk. I've
read your book about the Iran-Iraq war and you don't present any
evidence of the MiG-25 - F-14 encounters you describe in such vivid
details. Just a bunch on baloney.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

"Venik" wrote in message
...
Tom Cooper wrote:

Besides, when you state that the MiG-25 or MiG-31 have had such an
"impact"
on US planing that the SR-71 was retired, why don't you then also
explain
about the impact of the F-14 on further developments of MiG-25s?

Because we are talking about SR-71 and MiG-25. We can also talk about
the impact of the MiG-25 on the development of the F-14, but this
wouldn't really have anything to do with SR-71, would it?

Well, if you would know what are you actually talking about then you'd know
that it actually has to do. Then, the SR-71 came into existence from a
project that was also developed into the YF-12. And... the YF-12 was
equipped with a direct predecessor of the AWG-9 radar, and armed with a
direct predecessor of the AIM-54....

Namely, this was stopped on a direct order from Moscow after a second
Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs on testing in Iraq was shot down by Iranian F-14s
(using "non-operational" AIM-54s) - in 1987.

If you want to talk about the F-14, then, perhaps, you should start
another thread, unless, of course, your intention is to shift the topic
of this discussion to the Iran-Iraq war...

You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31
(the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86
ALCMs) on SR-71.

I said, "OK, no problem". And, then I asked you why don't you explain about
the impact of (extremely negative) experiences from the testing of Soviet
equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was _indeed_ highly influential for (the
end of) development of MiG-25?

If, "this is not the right thread to talk about that" is your only answer,
no problem, just say so...

...(during which there were no
verifiable MiG-25 kills by the F-14 - just a lot of claims by the
glorious Iranian AF.

If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?

One MiG-25RB was downed by an Iranian Hawk.

Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another
story.

What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one
IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes
that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive
in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989.
According to the same document, and also US intel documents released
according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by
1991.

How do you explain this difference? What happened to 30 MiG-25s delivered to
Iraq but missing by 1991?

Also, if we're now going back to the overall pictu even if only 1 Foxbat
was shot down by Iranian MIM-23s, in total that makes three shot down over
Lebanon by the Israelis, one by the Iranians, and two by USAF in 1991.
That's six MiG-25s - at least (the actual number is over 30, but never
mind). Could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in something
like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?

I've read your book about the Iran-Iraq war and you don't present any
evidence of the MiG-25 - F-14 encounters you describe in such vivid
details. Just a bunch on baloney.

Of course: my books are full of no evidence for such encounters, and lots of
baloney. Everybody knows this meanwhile.

BTW, what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about? Any gun-camera pictures or
radar bands at hand?

Oh, and, BTW #2, I also asked:

- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?

- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?

Are you able to offer a reasonable answer to these questions, or do you
prefer to ignore them again?

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Tom Cooper wrote:

Well, if you would know what are you actually talking about then you'd know
that it actually has to do. Then, the SR-71 came into existence from a
project that was also developed into the YF-12. And... the YF-12 was
equipped with a direct predecessor of the AWG-9 radar, and armed with a
direct predecessor of the AIM-54....

And... they all came from the Wright flyer. Like I said, you are trying
to change the subject of the discussion.

You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31
(the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86
ALCMs) on SR-71.

I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw
the SR-71 from service. And you are deliberately trying to change the topic.

If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?

Iraq lost several MiG-25s in accidents during the conflict. As I already
mentioned, one was lost to an Iranian SAM. One was lost due to
uncontained engine failure. Another one was lost on landing during a
test flight .

Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another
story.

I know, according to your book, Iraq lost about three times the number
of MiG-25 it had. That's not even counting the ones downed during the PGW.


What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one
IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes
that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive
in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989.
According to the same document, and also US intel documents released
according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by
1991.

It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs and
eight MiG-25RB recce bombers. The refurbished MiG-25 that crashed in
Dec. 1987 during a test flight was replaced by the Soviets. And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th. My only suggestion is that you should look for better
"secret" documents and stop thinking stuff up.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

"Venik" wrote in message
...

snip

You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31
(the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their
AGM-86
ALCMs) on SR-71.

I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw
the SR-71 from service. And you are deliberately trying to change the
topic.

You can complain I'm "changing the topic" as much as you like. The point is
only that you're avoiding answers to all questions asked in your direction
here, and can therefore continue explaining me whatever you want until the
hell freezes.

Namely, you still have not mentioned all these books and documents in which
the US thinking and plans were changed because of MiG-31s. No trace of any
kind of proof is coming from you (no surprise: you still haven't provided
any proof for 200+ NATO planes shot down over Serbia, in 1999, either - even
if you're announcing this since five years ). I'm telling you right away -
like so many others here - that the SR-71 was _not_ retired because of
MiG-25/31 threat, and you have not a trace of evidence to deny this.

So, either you finally mention all these books and documents so we can take
a look and you can prove us wrong, or admit you have no evidence at all for
your statements.

If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against
IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian
F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?

Iraq lost several MiG-25s in accidents during the conflict. As I already
mentioned, one was lost to an Iranian SAM. One was lost due to
uncontained engine failure. Another one was lost on landing during a
test flight .

You're avoiding to answer my question, so here it is again: - why are there
pictures of wreckage of IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s shot down over Iran?

Besides, if your data is so "well documented", then explain me when was that
one lost to an Iranian SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the
pilot? From which unit was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or
wreckage? Where and when was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"?
Who was the pilot of that plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or
its wreckage?Where and when was "another one lost on landing during a test
flight"?

BTW, do you at least have a clue which IrAF units used to operate MiG-25s?
Detachments from which V-VS units were sent to Iraq to test their Foxbats in
combat?

Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's
another
story.

I know, according to your book, Iraq lost about three times the number
of MiG-25 it had.

Excellent: how about you citing from any of my books where do I state
anything similar?

You said you have read the book, so at least this should not be a
problem....just cite exactly what can be found in the book "Iran-Iraq War in
the Air, 1980-1988" about the number of MiG-25s lost by Iraqis?

What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only
one
IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes
that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD
Archive
in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989.
According to the same document, and also US intel documents released
according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left
by
1991.

It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs....

Where is it "well documented"? What kind of evidence can you provide to
support this statement?

...and
eight MiG-25RB recce bombers. The refurbished MiG-25 that crashed in
Dec. 1987 during a test flight was replaced by the Soviets.

Where did it crash and what is the source for this? Why do the official
Soviet documents state that over 60 MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq, but
there were only 30 left in 1991?

And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th.

Which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in 1991? Which F-16-pilots scored
these kills and with which weapons?

My only suggestion is that you should look for better
"secret" documents and stop thinking stuff up.

No problem at all: I'll stop "thinking stuff up" and look for better
documents as soon as you finally start answering my questions. Meanwhile
you've ignored quite a lot of these, so here they are again:

- I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative)
experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was
_indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25?

- I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in
something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?

- If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?

I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of
baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not
answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in
this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or
point at any kind of a source that could?

- Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60
MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained
operational by 1991?

- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?

- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?

Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of
these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think
stuffs up" by ignoring them?

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift
the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I
understand that this is one area that you probably read something about,
but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about
dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have
anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71? Your questions are
totally irrelevant and so are your arguments. Your claims of Iraqi
MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many
Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased
20 of these aircraft. You talk about some documents stating that Iraq
had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them. Where are the photos of these MiGs?
Surely by now the US troops found all of them.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

"Venik" wrote in message
...
Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift
the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I
understand that this is one area that you probably read something about,
but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about
dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have
anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71?

For third time. this has to do with the cancellation of MiG-25 development,
caused due to the loss of Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs being shot down over Iran
in November 1987. Repeat: a loss of a Soviet-flown MiG-25BM. In combat.
Against Iranian F-14s. Something that never happened to any USAF SR-71.

This means that it was the Soviets who have changed their planing and
behaviour in regards of MiG-25s due to F-14s. It was not so that the USA
have changed their planing and behaviour in regards of SR-71s because of
MiG-25s or MiG-31s - as you explained above but are completely unable to
provide any kind of evidence for. Capice?

Namely, Venik, you stated:

There've been entire books written on the impact of the MiG-31 on the US
planning.

And, consequently, I'm asking now for the 5th time: can you finally say what
books? Can you say the title, author, publisher, ISBN of such books?

Your questions are
totally irrelevant and so are your arguments.

Why are my questions irrelevant? You said there are "entire books written on
the impact of the MiG-31 on the US planning. I'm asking you: which books?

Can you name even a single one or not?

Your claims of Iraqi
MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many
Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased
20 of these aircraft.

Where is this a "well-known fact"? What is your source for this? Can you
name a book, article, official document that would confirm your figures?

Then, you were explaining about how many IrAF MiG-25s were lost in 1980s: 3.
And, you said this is "well documented". I said OK. No problem. Just, can
you provide evidence of how "well documented" these losses are? If they are
so "well documented", then explain me when was that one lost to an Iranian
SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the pilot? From which unit
was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or wreckage? Where and when
was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"? Who was the pilot of that
plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or its wreckage?Where and
when was "another one lost on landing during a test flight"?

You talk about some documents stating that Iraq
had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them.

Following is the excerpt from the USN document titled "Speartip 014-90" the
title-page and the relevant page I have just e-mailed to you, discussing the
number of MiG-25PDs - repeat: MiG-25PDs (i.e. if you can, note the stress on
INTERCEPTORS, not on a combination of recce and interceptor variants) - as
available in 1991:
_
4. (S/NF/WN) - AIRCRAFT-SPECIFIC ISSUES. THOUGH THE IRAQI AIR FORCE IS LARGE
IN NUMERS, ITS FRENCH AND SOVIET BUILT FIGHTER/INTERCEPTOR FORCE COMPRISES
LESS THAN HALF THIS SUM. THIS FORCE IS BROKE DOWN INTO ALL-WX/VFR CAPABLE
AIRCRAFT AS FOLLOWS:
....
MiG-25 FOXBAT A/E 22
....

Speartip 014-90 was an official document, issued to brief USN commanders
going to a war against Iraq. So, except you're now going to explain us that
ONI was _lying_ to its own people, there were obviously at least 22
MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' - i.e. INTERCEPTOR FOXBATS - in service with the IrAF in
1991. That's a figure that is not including the number of
MiG-25R/RB/BT/RBSHs and MiG-25PUs supplied to Iraq.

Now, you stated above that Iraq "only purchased 20 of these aircraft".
Specifically, you stated that (citate from one of your posts above), "It's a
well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs". How do you
explain this discrepancy?

How comes there is a disparity in the figures you provide and what the US
Navy Intelligence was explaining to USN pilots going to a war? Would you
perhaps like to explain us that the ONI was babbling nosence and its
arguments were "irrelevant"?

Oh, and BTW, can you provide any kind of document that would confirm your
statement that the Soviets have supplied only 20 Foxbats of all versions to
Iraq?

Where are the photos of these MiGs?
Surely by now the US troops found all of them.

This was the worst question you could have asked, then there are meanwhile
really a lot of photos of Iraqi MiG-25s found and captured last year. In
fact, the US DoD and private websites of US vets who were in Iraq last and
this year have so far released photographs of no less but 15 different
MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' found in Iraq last year. These are obviously the survivors
of the 22 mentioned in the Speartip 014-90. To make matters really bitter
for you, Venik, however, there are also plenty of photos of Iraqi
MiG-25R/RBs and MiG-25PUs, including:

MiG-25R/RB etc.
- 25105
- 25106
- 25107
- 25108

MiG-25PU
- 25xxx (the one photographed with Australian SAS)

So, if you now calculate what the Speartip above mentioned, namely that
there were 22 MiG-25PD(e) and MiG-25PDS in Iraq in 1991, and add the
MiG-25R/RBs and PUs the serials of which I mentioned above, and ignore all
the Foxbats destroyed on the ground in 1991 and 2003, as well as those shot
down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, as well as the fact that the serials
of examples captured in Iraq last year obviously indicate that there were
even more R/RBs in Iraq, you come out with a total of (at least) 27 MiG-25s
of all versions in Iraq in 1991.

Remember: You said that "it's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased 20
of these aircraft".

Photographic and intelligence documentation indicate there were at least 27
of Foxbats in Iraq in 1991, and this figure excludes three examples shot
down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, and two destroyed on the ground in
1991. Plus, this figure excludes the three examples you say were lost during
the war with Iran.

With other words, Venik, this would mean that Iraq purchased (at least) 35
MiG-25s, and that your data is completely wrong. How do you explain this?


BTW, your account on unaswered questions is permanently increasing.
Meanwhile, it looks as follows:

- I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative)
experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was
_indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25?

- I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in
something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?

- If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?

I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of
baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not
answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in
this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or
point at any kind of a source that could?

- Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60
MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained
operational by 1991?

- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?

- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?

You furthermore stated,
And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th.

In response to which I asked, which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in
1991? Which F-16-pilots scored these kills and with which weapons?


Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of
these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think
stuffs up" by ignoring them?

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Mr. Cooper, it seems you are suggesting that the former USSR fired some
4,000 SAMs against SR-71. Yet, SR-71 was "intercepted" with Swedish JA-37
(or so they say). I don't know, but if I were a Soviet PVO commander in
chief in that time, I would be p*ssed off big time!

Now, I know that you have a lot of good information, but being an aircraft
"fan" I prefer some information over "I dare you, Venik". More like
"Vladimir Malukh" first (or good second-hand) stuff. And no, I don't believe
that SR-71 was withdrawn because of MiG-31. Also, to be thruthful, MiG-31
was tested under a name MiG-25MP and further developed into MiG-31BM...

P.S. what the heck were MiG-25s doing at low-level to be shot by F-5s!? At
that altitude their performance is such they well might have plunged
themselves into ground!

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

From: Venik

I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw
the SR-71 from service.

And you have yet to provide the name of a single verifiable source outside the
Soviet Union.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired