Procedure for calculating weight and balance

Mxsmanic wrote:
Newps writes:
All it does is relieve the pressure. If there were no trim at all the
elevator would be in the exact same position, it would just suck to have
to hold it there.

That's just it: If there were no trim at all, the elevator wouldn't
be there. It would be in its neutral position. Of course you can
_push_ it there, but with trim set, it goes there and stays there
without being pushed (by you).

In this case, you really need to listen to what Thomas and others are
saying. There is no neutral position. There is just a natural
position for a certain flight regime.

Therefore, if you are hand-flying, and you move the trim, the airplane
will react. The pilot will notice this (it's impossible not to).

I'm trying to think of a relevant example using a car or roller coaster
or other easy to understand situation, but I don't have enough coffee
in me yet :-) Perhaps someone else can some up with something.

Kev

Newps wrote:
MxIdiot is a complete and utter moron and deserves everything he gets.

Careful. Glass houses and all that.

Plus it's fun.

Dude, do more flying. I can think of a lot more fun things, than
constantly bashing one teenage boy on the net :-)

Kev

Mxsmanic wrote:
Kev writes:
I just don't understand why CH Products or anyone else has not come out
with a force feedback yoke and a good driver. They'd sell a ton to
pilots.

It's already overpriced; I shudder to think what it would cost with
force feedback.

It is overpriced, so a decent cost with FF should be possible. Before
my recent illness chewed up a ton of savings, I had done some
prototyping and was considering starting a side business making such
yokes, although my first aim was selling a relatively inexpensive sim
avionics setup. (The latter also being overpriced.)

I'm a big believer that having sim avionics hardware allows pilots to
realistically practice setting up radios, nav, etc. In my area
(Northeast) you can change freqs fairly often.

And several sources I've read say that incorrect feedback is worse
than none at all. And since different aircraft "feel" different, it
would be hard to calibrate the yoke for each aircraft (MSFS wouldn't
do it).

Incorrect feedback is indeed worse than none at all. But none at all
is really bad.

It should not be difficult to allow for calibrating feedback for each
aircraft.

Kev

Recently, Kev posted:

Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Kev posted:
Neil Gould wrote:
When trim is changed, the flight condition changes. There are many
clues about trim settings that the conscious pilot can note,
especially when the trim is set near the limits of its travel. It
really doesn't matter whether the aircraft is FBW, autopilot, or
hand-flown.

Total agreement that it's noticeable when hand-flying. As for
autopilot, conditions such as tail-plane icing have caused famous
accidents because the pilots didn't realize where the trim had moved
to. But okay, perhaps they weren't concious enough.

Yes, I would say that such pilots are ignoring a lot of information about
the changing flight condition.

Of course, sometimes pilots *do* forget... thus the number of
take-off accidents caused by the trim being in the wrong place.

This is a matter of making an error in the pre-flight checklist. It
has nothing to do with the mechanics of trim.

Agreed, but my point is that it's difficult to make a
one-size-fits-all statement that pilots would never forget, or not
notice an out-of-trim condition.

The examples that you gave have to do with personal habits. Bad habits --
which is at the heart of your scenarios -- are a separate issue, and
shouldn't be confused with trim or any other aeronautic function.

Regards,

Neil

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
. net...
Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Newps writes:

In the types of planes we're talking about here the autopilot doesn't
actuate the trim.

I'm talking about all types of planes. Not everyone flies a tin can.

My "tin can" has both pitch and trim servos.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Newps writes:


In the types of planes we're talking about here the autopilot doesn't
actuate the trim.


I'm talking about all types of planes. Not everyone flies a tin can.

No you're not. You were talking about a Baron and the rest of us are
talking about the types we specifically fly. You only bring up
everything else when you've been proven wrong. As usual.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Newps writes:


All it does is relieve the pressure. If there were no trim at all the
elevator would be in the exact same position, it would just suck to have
to hold it there.


That's just it: If there were no trim at all, the elevator wouldn't
be there.

Yes it would.


It would be in its neutral position.

No such thing.



Of course you can
_push_ it there, but with trim set, it goes there and stays there
without being pushed (by you).

Pure drivel.

Kev wrote:

Newps wrote:

Kev wrote:

Of course, sometimes pilots *do* forget... thus the number of take-off
accidents caused by the trim being in the wrong place. Yes, at the
last second they feel the extra control force coming in, but it's too
late.

Maybe in jets or King Air's but not spam cans.


Unclear. What are you claiming doesn't happen in small planes?

I can set the trim fully up or down in my Bonanza and the 182 I had
before that and take off or land just fine. It's no fun but the plane
is not out of control.

Recently, BDS posted:

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
. net...
Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Newps writes:

In the types of planes we're talking about here the autopilot
doesn't actuate the trim.

I'm talking about all types of planes. Not everyone flies a tin
can.

My "tin can" has both pitch and trim servos.

Please be careful about attributions... I'm not involved in this part of
your discussion!

Thanks!

Neil

Kev writes:

It is overpriced, so a decent cost with FF should be possible.

But if they are already gouging on the price for the normal controls,
I'm sure they'd want an even more absurd margin on the force-feedback
version.

I'm a big believer that having sim avionics hardware allows pilots to
realistically practice setting up radios, nav, etc. In my area
(Northeast) you can change freqs fairly often.

The problem with special hardware is that it makes the simulator more
and more specific to a given aircraft, and less and less applicable to
other aircraft. If you try to come up with something generic, it
becomes inaccurate with _all_ aircraft.

For example, you can use a generic joystick, throttle, and rudder
pedals with almost any aircraft, but if you start building custom
autopilot control panels, you have to decide _which_ control panel you
want to simulate. And if you don't have a specific one in mind, there
isn't much to be gained by building a panel, as it won't be any closer
to reality than images on a screen.

It should not be difficult to allow for calibrating feedback for each
aircraft.

I don't think MSFS allows this, which is one problem with force
feedback in MSFS.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.