Glider Annual with non-current Transponder

On Friday, April 27, 2012 10:51:37 PM UTC-5, Scott wrote:
On 4-28-2012 02:49, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I'm not following your point here? What exactly are you trying to point out?

Darryl

That annual or biennial "certifications" of transponders are not
necessary for VFR flights.

91.215(c) requires the transponder to be maintained under 91.413 if you are going to turn it on. 91.413 requires it to comply with Part 43 appendix F. a check is absolutely required every 24 months whether VFR or IFR, to be legal.

On Friday, April 27, 2012 8:51:37 PM UTC-7, Scott wrote:
On 4-28-2012 02:49, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I'm not following your point here? What exactly are you trying to point out?

Darryl

That annual or biennial "certifications" of transponders are not
necessary for VFR flights.

I appreciate some of these regulations are confusing and even somewhat circular in their construction but you will likely lose that argument if faced with a ramp inspection.

Once you decide to install a transponder in any aircraft it is captured by 14 CFR 91.413 (a) "No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or § 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and..."

All that is being referenced here is 14 CFR 91.2159(a) which is just the TSO standards to which a transponder must meet. So if you have a transponder that meets these standards you have to have it checked every 18 months according to 91.413 or its not valid to operate (and again that's the RF not encoder tests only). The ramp inspector is also likely to be interested 91.215 (c) "Transponder-on Operation" and how even though this is a glider, once the transponder is installed you are required to operate the transponder in all controlled airspace (which includes class E) and how have you been and how you will in future do this if the transponder has not been "maintained"....

---

VFR/IFR differences don't come at all into 18 month Appendix F (RF) related tests only Appendix E (pressure altimeter/encoder).

The altimeter/encoder related test on transponder install (but not biannually for VFR aircraft) is captured in 14 CFR 91.411 (3) "Following installation or maintenance on the automatic pressure altitude reporting system of the ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter." So this test is typically an installation one-off requirement and is not repeated regularly.

--

Regardless of all this regulation stuff I hope my practical point was emphasized enough-please never operate transponders in Mode A only unless there is an encoder error/failure (and ideally you are in touch with ATC). Especially because this makes your aircraft/transponder invisible to TCAS, TCAD and PCAS systems.

Darryl



On Friday, April 27, 2012 8:51:37 PM UTC-7, Scott wrote:
On 4-28-2012 02:49, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I'm not following your point here? What exactly are you trying to point out?

Darryl

That annual or biennial "certifications" of transponders are not
necessary for VFR flights.

On Friday, April 27, 2012 10:14:51 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2012 8:51:37 PM UTC-7, Scott wrote:
On 4-28-2012 02:49, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I'm not following your point here? What exactly are you trying to point out?

Darryl

That annual or biennial "certifications" of transponders are not
necessary for VFR flights.

I appreciate some of these regulations are confusing and even somewhat circular in their construction but you will likely lose that argument if faced with a ramp inspection.

Once you decide to install a transponder in any aircraft it is captured by 14 CFR 91.413 (a) "No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or § 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and..."

All that is being referenced here is 14 CFR 91.2159(a) which is just the TSO standards to which a transponder must meet. So if you have a transponder that meets these standards you have to have it checked every 18 months according to 91.413 or its not valid to operate (and again that's the RF not encoder tests only). The ramp inspector is also likely to be interested 91..215 (c) "Transponder-on Operation" and how even though this is a glider, once the transponder is installed you are required to operate the transponder in all controlled airspace (which includes class E) and how have you been and how you will in future do this if the transponder has not been "maintained"....

---

VFR/IFR differences don't come at all into 18 month Appendix F (RF) related tests only Appendix E (pressure altimeter/encoder).

The altimeter/encoder related test on transponder install (but not biannually for VFR aircraft) is captured in 14 CFR 91.411 (3) "Following installation or maintenance on the automatic pressure altitude reporting system of the ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter." So this test is typically an installation one-off requirement and is not repeated regularly.

--

Regardless of all this regulation stuff I hope my practical point was emphasized enough-please never operate transponders in Mode A only unless there is an encoder error/failure (and ideally you are in touch with ATC). Especially because this makes your aircraft/transponder invisible to TCAS, TCAD and PCAS systems.

Darryl

Oops "18 month" that was a typo - I meant "24 month"

Darryl