Glider Annual with non-current Transponder

I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month certification?

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:29:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month certification?

yes it should

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:32:12 -0500, Tony wrote:

To amplify Tony's comments, the required elements for inspection at annual
(and 100 hour), are listed in 14 CFR 43, Appendix D. Transponder
operation is not listed, so having a non-operating or out-of-date
transponder should not prevent satisfactory completion of an annual
inspection.

--Stefan


On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:29:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the
glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month
certification?

yes it should


--
Stefan Murry

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:29:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month certification?

Appendix D to Part 43

(c) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the cabin and cockpit group:

(4) Instruments—for poor condition, mounting, marking, and (where practicable) improper operation.

Sec. 91.213 — Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are—

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with §43.9 of this chapter; or

(ii) Deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

OK I have energy today and did my homework, Thanks.

On Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:37:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:29:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month certification?

Appendix D to Part 43

(c) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the cabin and cockpit group:

(4) Instruments—for poor condition, mounting, marking, and (where practicable) improper operation.

Sec. 91.213 — Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are—

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with §43.9 of this chapter; or

(ii) Deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

OK I have energy today and did my homework, Thanks.

if the transponder is out of calibration it is not inoperative and does not have to be placarded or removed. in fact it is just required to be left off until it has been calibrated.

On 4-26-2012 18:08, Tony wrote:
On Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:37:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:29:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month certification?

Appendix D to Part 43

(c) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the cabin and cockpit group:

(4) Instruments—for poor condition, mounting, marking, and (where practicable) improper operation.

Sec. 91.213 — Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are—

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with §43.9 of this chapter; or

(ii) Deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

OK I have energy today and did my homework, Thanks.

if the transponder is out of calibration it is not inoperative and does not have to be placarded or removed. in fact it is just required to be left off until it has been calibrated.

I believe the "calibration" is for the Mode-C altitude reporting. You
should still be able to run simple Mode-A (transponder in "On" position
squawking 1200 or whatever you use for "glider" as appropriate, not
"Alt" position) ???

On Friday, April 27, 2012 3:55:23 AM UTC-7, Scott wrote:
On 4-26-2012 18:08, Tony wrote:
On Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:37:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:29:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have a question for the group, will a glider pass a annual if the glider is equipped with a Transponder that is past it’s 24 month certification?

Appendix D to Part 43

(c) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the cabin and cockpit group:

(4) Instruments—for poor condition, mounting, marking, and (where practicable) improper operation.

Sec. 91.213 — Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are—

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with §43.9 of this chapter; or

(ii) Deactivated and placarded “Inoperative.” If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

OK I have energy today and did my homework, Thanks.

if the transponder is out of calibration it is not inoperative and does not have to be placarded or removed. in fact it is just required to be left off until it has been calibrated.

I believe the "calibration" is for the Mode-C altitude reporting. You
should still be able to run simple Mode-A (transponder in "On" position
squawking 1200 or whatever you use for "glider" as appropriate, not
"Alt" position) ???

No and no. This has been discussed here multiple times before. You need to read 14 CFR 43 appendix E and F. The biannual transponder test is described in appendix F and is radio frequency proprieties of the transponder only, and has nothing to do with pressure altimetery/encoding. That's covered in Appendix E and only required to be done on install or any time the static system is opened/modified. The biannual checking of RF properties made more sense in the days of traveling wave tube (valve) based transponders, with modern solid state transponders it is hard to justify.

And either way running a transponder in Mode A does not really help a lot. ATC will see a Mode A reply and they may (or may not) route traffic around it or warn other traffic if possible. If you are anywhere a Mode C transponder is required) or even where gliders have operating agreements with ATC) expect to have some ****ed off ATC folks. If you suspect your altimeter/encoder is faulty by all means go to Mode A only or standby, but especially if near ATC be in contact with them about this. A Mode A transponder is totally invisible to TCAS (and I assume most TCAD systems), which only interrogates in Mode C--and this is a significant saftey issue and reason not to want to ever do this near busy airspace (e.g Reno like areas). It also won't help PCAS systems that rely/assume they see Mode C and A relies.

The practical answer to the original question will depend on you A&P. Some may well not want to sign off on a annual if the transponder has not received a check -- I'd argue with them on this, but like many questions what actually happens is up to your A&P. And the practical hassle at worst is what an inspector performing a ramp check is going to believe and that might be all over the map. Hopefully the FAA and their staff would err on the side of doing whatever they can to encourage installation and use of transponders in gliders.

Darryl

I believe the "calibration" is for the Mode-C altitude reporting. You
should still be able to run simple Mode-A (transponder in "On" position
squawking 1200 or whatever you use for "glider" as appropriate, not
"Alt" position) ???

No and no. This has been discussed here multiple times before. You need to read 14 CFR 43 appendix E and F. The biannual transponder test is described in appendix F and is radio frequency proprieties of the transponder only, and has nothing to do with pressure altimetery/encoding. That's covered in Appendix E and only required to be done on install or any time the static system is opened/modified. The biannual checking of RF properties made more sense in the days of traveling wave tube (valve) based transponders, with modern solid state transponders it is hard to justify.

And either way running a transponder in Mode A does not really help a lot. ATC will see a Mode A reply and they may (or may not) route traffic around it or warn other traffic if possible. If you are anywhere a Mode C transponder is required) or even where gliders have operating agreements with ATC) expect to have some ****ed off ATC folks. If you suspect your altimeter/encoder is faulty by all means go to Mode A only or standby, but especially if near ATC be in contact with them about this. A Mode A transponder is totally invisible to TCAS (and I assume most TCAD systems), which only interrogates in Mode C--and this is a significant saftey issue and reason not to want to ever do this near busy airspace (e.g Reno like areas). It also won't help PCAS systems that rely/assume they see Mode C and A relies.

The practical answer to the original question will depend on you A&P. Some may well not want to sign off on a annual if the transponder has not received a check -- I'd argue with them on this, but like many questions what actually happens is up to your A&P. And the practical hassle at worst is what an inspector performing a ramp check is going to believe and that might be all over the map. Hopefully the FAA and their staff would err on the side of doing whatever they can to encourage installation and use of transponders in gliders.

Darryl

Appendix E http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part43-E-APPX.shtml refers
you to 91.411, which states:

"Sec. 91.411 — Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests
and inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
airspace under IFR unless—

(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure
system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude
reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with
appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;"

Note it says UNDER IFR in section (a). Therefore, it does not apply for
VFR flight.

Paragraph 2(c) deals only with Mode C interrogations.



Appendix F http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part43-F-APPX.shtml refers
you to operations required under Part 91.413 which covers operations as
specified in Part 91.215(a):



"91.215 says:

"ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under [part 121 or 135] of this chapter, ATC transponder
equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental
requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c
(Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the
appropriate class of
TSO-C112 (Mode S).
(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs
(b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped
with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A
4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code
specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A
interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S
interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in
TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure
altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that
automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure
altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies--
(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport
listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to
10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which
was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system
or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace
within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1
of this part provided such operations are conducted--
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace
area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider----
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and
below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a
10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2
of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the
lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for
that airport.
(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in
paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person
operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder
maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the
transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on
the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.
(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations
must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned
airspace within the time periods specified as follows:
(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but
without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having
a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.
(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the
airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to
proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the
request may be made at any time.
(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a
transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the
proposed operation."

This covers operation only in Class A, B and C airspaces.

On Friday, April 27, 2012 7:06:27 PM UTC-7, Scott wrote:
I believe the "calibration" is for the Mode-C altitude reporting. You
should still be able to run simple Mode-A (transponder in "On" position
squawking 1200 or whatever you use for "glider" as appropriate, not
"Alt" position) ???

No and no. This has been discussed here multiple times before. You need to read 14 CFR 43 appendix E and F. The biannual transponder test is described in appendix F and is radio frequency proprieties of the transponder only, and has nothing to do with pressure altimetery/encoding. That's covered in Appendix E and only required to be done on install or any time the static system is opened/modified. The biannual checking of RF properties made more sense in the days of traveling wave tube (valve) based transponders, with modern solid state transponders it is hard to justify.

And either way running a transponder in Mode A does not really help a lot. ATC will see a Mode A reply and they may (or may not) route traffic around it or warn other traffic if possible. If you are anywhere a Mode C transponder is required) or even where gliders have operating agreements with ATC) expect to have some ****ed off ATC folks. If you suspect your altimeter/encoder is faulty by all means go to Mode A only or standby, but especially if near ATC be in contact with them about this. A Mode A transponder is totally invisible to TCAS (and I assume most TCAD systems), which only interrogates in Mode C--and this is a significant saftey issue and reason not to want to ever do this near busy airspace (e.g Reno like areas). It also won't help PCAS systems that rely/assume they see Mode C and A relies.

The practical answer to the original question will depend on you A&P. Some may well not want to sign off on a annual if the transponder has not received a check -- I'd argue with them on this, but like many questions what actually happens is up to your A&P. And the practical hassle at worst is what an inspector performing a ramp check is going to believe and that might be all over the map. Hopefully the FAA and their staff would err on the side of doing whatever they can to encourage installation and use of transponders in gliders.

Darryl

Appendix E http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part43-E-APPX.shtml refers
you to 91.411, which states:

"Sec. 91.411 — Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests
and inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
airspace under IFR unless—

(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure
system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude
reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with
appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;"

Note it says UNDER IFR in section (a). Therefore, it does not apply for
VFR flight.

Paragraph 2(c) deals only with Mode C interrogations.



Appendix F http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part43-F-APPX.shtml refers
you to operations required under Part 91.413 which covers operations as
specified in Part 91.215(a):



"91.215 says:

"ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under [part 121 or 135] of this chapter, ATC transponder
equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental
requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c
(Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the
appropriate class of
TSO-C112 (Mode S).
(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs
(b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped
with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A
4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code
specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A
interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S
interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in
TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure
altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that
automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure
altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies--
(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport
listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to
10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which
was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system
or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace
within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1
of this part provided such operations are conducted--
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace
area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider----
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and
below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a
10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2
of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the
lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for
that airport.
(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in
paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person
operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder
maintained in accordance with Sec. 91.413 of this part shall operate the
transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on
the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.
(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations
must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned
airspace within the time periods specified as follows:
(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but
without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having
a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.
(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the
airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to
proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the
request may be made at any time.
(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a
transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the
proposed operation."

This covers operation only in Class A, B and C airspaces.

I'm not following your point here? What exactly are you trying to point out?

Darryl

On 4-28-2012 02:49, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I'm not following your point here? What exactly are you trying to point out?

Darryl

That annual or biennial "certifications" of transponders are not
necessary for VFR flights.