Who's busted?

In article ,
"Dan Luke" wrote:

An aircraft departing a class D airport next to class C airspace
requests VFR flight following and is assigned a squawk code. The
aircraft is cleared for takeoff and instructed to fly runway heading at
or below 1,700. A few moments after takeoff, the pilot is instructed to
contact Approach but is unsuccessful after several attempts. The
aircraft nears clouds that extend well above and below its altitude and
will break VFR if it continues on its present heading. Still unable to
contact Approach, the pilot turns to maintain VFR and passes close to an
airliner inbound to the Class C airport, causing a loss of separation
incident. Who will suffer a violation, the pilot, the TRACON
controller, or both?

I certainly don't see anything that the pilot did contrary to FARs.

In article ,
"Dan Luke" wrote:

The TRACON issued the squawk code and takeoff instructions which were
relayed by the VFR tower. That doesn't count as establishing comm?

That's an interesting theory, but I wouldn't count on it.

First off, how do you know the tower was acting as a relay for tracon?
It seems reasonable to assume, but you don't really know that.

Second, it doesn't really matter where the instruction came from.
91.130 says you must "establish two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services". Having an
instruction relayed to you doesn't count as establishing two-way radio
communications.

the pilot needs to report back to the last station he had communication
with and let them know he was not able to establish communication.
Sometimes, they can give the pilot a new freq. to try or give alternate
instructions.


Dan Luke wrote:

"Newps" wrote:

The aircraft is cleared for takeoff and instructed to fly runway
heading at or below 1,700.

Why? It's a class D airport. This should have been immediately
questioned.

I get this instruction every time I depart BFM with VFR radar service
from MOB TRACON.

If it happened inside of class C then the VFR pilot can get dinged
for
not establishing comm before entering the class C. The TRACON
controller is not a factor.

??
The TRACON issued the squawk code and takeoff instructions which were
relayed by the VFR tower. That doesn't count as establishing comm?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Yup, he did nothing wrong... I always return to tower frequency if I did not
get a reply within a reasonable time on any new frequency I am given...
Maybe the tower gave me the wrong frequency... Maybe ATC just had a
lightning strike... Who knows - but you do know who you just talked to and
he has telephone links, etc..

And, I suggest having all of the listed departure and approach frequencies
for that facility, scribbled on your knee board prior to take off, just in
case...

BTW, if the request was for VFR flight following, why was the pilot in the
soup at 1700 agl? rhetorical question
denny

"Roy Smith" wrote in message I certainly don't see
anything that the pilot did contrary to FARs.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

That's an interesting theory, but I wouldn't count on it.

First off, how do you know the tower was acting as a relay for tracon?
It seems reasonable to assume, but you don't really know that.


What other possible source is there?



Second, it doesn't really matter where the instruction came from.
91.130 says you must "establish two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services". Having an
instruction relayed to you doesn't count as establishing two-way radio
communications.


Review the first sentence of 91.130.

Lets not start counting the angels on the the head of a pin here...
Controllers do not give out squawk codes and headings that they do not have
the authority for - if the D-controller gives has a squawk code to give you
for leaving his airpace, he got it from the C-controller for that
airspace...

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:
BTW, if the request was for VFR flight following, why was
the pilot in the soup at 1700 agl? rhetorical question

Well, I'll answer it anyway: It's pretty common down here on the bay for
aircraft departing the area to have to duck and dodge to maintain VFR.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

"Dan Luke" wrote:
too near an aircraft flying the ILS 14 into
MOB.

Oops. Should have said the ILS 32.

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

Damfino. It's what you get every time you depart BFM with flight
following.


I'd wager the local MVA is 2200'.

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Lets not start counting the angels on the the head of a pin here...
Controllers do not give out squawk codes and headings that they do not have
the authority for - if the D-controller gives has a squawk code to give you
for leaving his airpace, he got it from the C-controller for that
airspace...

Isn't this what I said? Taken from prior post....

In my situation (JAN and HKS), JAN approach control worked with HKS to
give me a squawk code and instructed HKS to have me fly runway heading

Allen