Who's busted?

An aircraft departing a class D airport next to class C airspace
requests VFR flight following and is assigned a squawk code. The
aircraft is cleared for takeoff and instructed to fly runway heading at
or below 1,700. A few moments after takeoff, the pilot is instructed to
contact Approach but is unsuccessful after several attempts. The
aircraft nears clouds that extend well above and below its altitude and
will break VFR if it continues on its present heading. Still unable to
contact Approach, the pilot turns to maintain VFR and passes close to an
airliner inbound to the Class C airport, causing a loss of separation
incident. Who will suffer a violation, the pilot, the TRACON
controller, or both?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Dan Luke wrote:

An aircraft departing a class D airport next to class C airspace
requests VFR flight following and is assigned a squawk code. The
aircraft is cleared for takeoff and instructed to fly runway heading at
or below 1,700. A few moments after takeoff, the pilot is instructed to
contact Approach but is unsuccessful after several attempts. The
aircraft nears clouds that extend well above and below its altitude and
will break VFR if it continues on its present heading. Still unable to
contact Approach, the pilot turns to maintain VFR and passes close to an
airliner inbound to the Class C airport, causing a loss of separation
incident. Who will suffer a violation, the pilot, the TRACON
controller, or both?

Dan,

Define "well above or below 1700".

If it was me deciding, I'd blame the pilot. Sounds like he launched
into IFR conditions. "Well below" 1700 to me is near or at IFR
minimums. From what you described, sounds like a frontal cloud to be
that thick. Tracon doesn't know what the weather is outside. Nor did
tracon cause the seperation problem. The pilot did.

I personally would switched back to the Delta airspace tower, say I am
doing a 180 back to the airport due to IFR conditions. Both airports
generally work together and the Delta tower would have relayed this to
the Charlie airport approach..

I have the exact "layout" at HKS and JAN.

Once I had troubles reaching JAN when I departed HKS, so I had
recontacted HKS to explain I was working the radio problem and please
relay this to JAN. JAN was kind enough to relay heading instructions
through HKS until I recycled my COM 1 radion (powered it on and off).
Once the radio turned back on, I was able to talk to JAN approach.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:

If it was me deciding, I'd blame the pilot. Sounds like he launched
into IFR conditions.

Dan later said the airport is BFM. That's on Mobile bay. Cloud conditions are
usually odd along coastlines.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

Dan later said the airport is BFM. That's on Mobile bay. Cloud conditions
are usually odd along coastlines.

A while back, I departed a beautiful and otherwise-clear ACK right into a
big mucking cloud sitting on runway heading. The VFRers were taking a
quick turn to stay VMC, but I used this as a good excuse to get my wife
into the clouds for the first time (but brief enough that she'd no need to
be concerned).

[I needn't have worried. Her major concern was getting the trip on video.]

- Andrew

Dan Luke wrote:
An aircraft departing a class D airport next to class C airspace
requests VFR flight following and is assigned a squawk code. The
aircraft is cleared for takeoff and instructed to fly runway heading at
or below 1,700.

Why? It's a class D airport. This should have been immediately questioned.


A few moments after takeoff, the pilot is instructed to
contact Approach but is unsuccessful after several attempts. The
aircraft nears clouds that extend well above and below its altitude and
will break VFR if it continues on its present heading. Still unable to
contact Approach, the pilot turns to maintain VFR and passes close to an
airliner inbound to the Class C airport, causing a loss of separation
incident. Who will suffer a violation, the pilot, the TRACON
controller, or both?

There is no standard separation between those two. If they missed then
there was no loss of separation. If it happened inside of class C then
the VFR pilot can get dinged for not establishing comm before entering
the class C. The TRACON controller is not a factor.

Newps wrote:

Dan Luke wrote:
An aircraft departing a class D airport next to class C airspace
requests VFR flight following and is assigned a squawk code. The
aircraft is cleared for takeoff and instructed to fly runway heading at
or below 1,700.

Why? It's a class D airport. This should have been immediately questioned.

Newps,

What you say is not necessarily true.

In my situation (JAN and HKS), JAN approach control worked with HKS to
give me a squawk code and instructed HKS to have me fly runway heading.
Both airports work together in keeping traffic seperated. I never
thought about questioning tower since they coordinated with JAN for my
squawk code.

I make the assumption the fly runway heading was directed by JAN through
HKS until I make contact with JAN. This way, they know what my path
will be until I contact them.

Allen

Lets not start counting the angels on the the head of a pin here...
Controllers do not give out squawk codes and headings that they do not have
the authority for - if the D-controller gives has a squawk code to give you
for leaving his airpace, he got it from the C-controller for that
airspace...

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Lets not start counting the angels on the the head of a pin here...
Controllers do not give out squawk codes and headings that they do not have
the authority for - if the D-controller gives has a squawk code to give you
for leaving his airpace, he got it from the C-controller for that
airspace...

Isn't this what I said? Taken from prior post....

In my situation (JAN and HKS), JAN approach control worked with HKS to
give me a squawk code and instructed HKS to have me fly runway heading

Allen

"Newps" wrote in message
news:HnN6c.45280$Cb.642313@attbi_s51...

Why? It's a class D airport. This should have been immediately
questioned.


What's to question? It's a Class D airport next to Class C airspace, so
Class C services are being provided to participating aircraft within 20
miles of the Class C airport.



There is no standard separation between those two.


Yes there is. Separation between participating VFR and IFR aircraft in the
outer area is the same as within the Class C airspace proper; target
resolution, 500 feet vertical, or visual.



If it happened inside of class C then
the VFR pilot can get dinged for not establishing comm before entering
the class C. The TRACON controller is not a factor.


"Unless otherwise authorized by ATC,..." The VFR aircraft's entry was
coordinated with the TRACON. Who do you think issued the beacon code?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

Separation between participating VFR and IFR aircraft in the
outer area is the same as within the Class C airspace proper; target
resolution, 500 feet vertical, or visual.

Can you tell me a little more about what that means? Does "or visual" mean that
adequate clearance exists when both planes have visual contact and miss each
other?

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.