Paraglider winching aka kiteing

On 11/01/14 23:38, son_of_flubber wrote:
Since I have no experience with winching, the concept of an errant airplane running into a winch cable is new to me and therefore interesting. It's not something that is often mentioned.

You have experience with winching and therefore see the event from a completely different perspective. Your matter-of-fact comment that errant airplanes commonly enter winch zones was also interesting to me.

Have a look at "Airprox Report No 052/07" on p171 of
http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/ukabbk18.pdf
which includes
"Several times each year pilots of ac inbound to Kemble
appear to misidentify Aston Down for Kemble and enter a
circuit or even line up on one of the two RWs, ignoring
the different RW direction; the wind; the winch; the
gliders - both in circuit and on the airfields and a
double-deck control bus parked at the launch point on
the runway. It is often the case that these same pilots
are in communication with Kemble throughout and only
realise they are mistaken when Kemble reports no sight
of them on approach."

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:11:36 +0000, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 11/01/14 23:38, son_of_flubber wrote:
Since I have no experience with winching, the concept of an errant
airplane running into a winch cable is new to me and therefore
interesting. It's not something that is often mentioned.

You have experience with winching and therefore see the event from a
completely different perspective. Your matter-of-fact comment that
errant airplanes commonly enter winch zones was also interesting to me.

Have a look at "Airprox Report No 052/07" on p171 of
http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/ukabbk18.pdf which includes
"Several times each year pilots of ac inbound to Kemble appear to
misidentify Aston Down for Kemble and enter a circuit or even line up
on one of the two RWs, ignoring the different RW direction; the wind;
the winch; the gliders - both in circuit and on the airfields and a
double-deck control bus parked at the launch point on the runway. It
is often the case that these same pilots are in communication with
Kemble throughout and only realise they are mistaken when Kemble
reports no sight of them on approach."

We have had the same problem at GRL, but with GA traffic for Little
Gransden (3km, 1.6 nm away). Never mind that we have three runways that
form a large triangle while Little Gransden is a single 500m runway. You
really wonder what, if anything, goes on in these guy's heads, especially
the one who made three attempts to land at GRL while we were launching
the grid during a Regionals. And then he got abusive when told he
wouldn't be allowed to leave until we'd finished launching.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 12/01/14 14:21, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:11:36 +0000, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 11/01/14 23:38, son_of_flubber wrote:
Since I have no experience with winching, the concept of an errant
airplane running into a winch cable is new to me and therefore
interesting. It's not something that is often mentioned.

You have experience with winching and therefore see the event from a
completely different perspective. Your matter-of-fact comment that
errant airplanes commonly enter winch zones was also interesting to me.

Have a look at "Airprox Report No 052/07" on p171 of
http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/ukabbk18.pdf which includes
"Several times each year pilots of ac inbound to Kemble appear to
misidentify Aston Down for Kemble and enter a circuit or even line up
on one of the two RWs, ignoring the different RW direction; the wind;
the winch; the gliders - both in circuit and on the airfields and a
double-deck control bus parked at the launch point on the runway. It
is often the case that these same pilots are in communication with
Kemble throughout and only realise they are mistaken when Kemble
reports no sight of them on approach."

We have had the same problem at GRL, but with GA traffic for Little
Gransden (3km, 1.6 nm away). Never mind that we have three runways that
form a large triangle while Little Gransden is a single 500m runway. You
really wonder what, if anything, goes on in these guy's heads, especially
the one who made three attempts to land at GRL while we were launching
the grid during a Regionals. And then he got abusive when told he
wouldn't be allowed to leave until we'd finished launching.

I've watched a light aircraft shimmy down the side of our main
runway (while we were winch launching) rocking his wings from
side to side, before disappearing off to one side. Clearly his
thought processes were "this doesn't look right, where the hell am I"

Less authoritatively...
neilmac 19th May 2007, 11:58
GA plane joining Kemble from the NW last week,
A/C "Confirm by your threshold you have gliders"?
FISO "Last time I looked they were 747s"
A/C "Ahh Roger ..............I ll reposition for your overhead again"
Plane making approach to a nearby gliding site
NM
from http://www.pprune.org/archive/index....59309-p-4.html

Or the pilot that doesn't believe we're not Kemble until he is led
out to look at the 6ft "AD" letters in the grass by the clubhouse.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:17:11 +0000, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 12/01/14 14:21, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:11:36 +0000, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 11/01/14 23:38, son_of_flubber wrote:
Since I have no experience with winching, the concept of an errant
airplane running into a winch cable is new to me and therefore
interesting. It's not something that is often mentioned.

You have experience with winching and therefore see the event from a
completely different perspective. Your matter-of-fact comment that
errant airplanes commonly enter winch zones was also interesting to
me.

Have a look at "Airprox Report No 052/07" on p171 of
http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/ukabbk18.pdf which includes
"Several times each year pilots of ac inbound to Kemble appear to
misidentify Aston Down for Kemble and enter a circuit or even line
up on one of the two RWs, ignoring the different RW direction; the
wind;
the winch; the gliders - both in circuit and on the airfields and
a double-deck control bus parked at the launch point on the
runway. It is often the case that these same pilots are in
communication with Kemble throughout and only realise they are
mistaken when Kemble reports no sight of them on approach."

We have had the same problem at GRL, but with GA traffic for Little
Gransden (3km, 1.6 nm away). Never mind that we have three runways that
form a large triangle while Little Gransden is a single 500m runway.
You really wonder what, if anything, goes on in these guy's heads,
especially the one who made three attempts to land at GRL while we were
launching the grid during a Regionals. And then he got abusive when
told he wouldn't be allowed to leave until we'd finished launching.

I've watched a light aircraft shimmy down the side of our main runway
(while we were winch launching) rocking his wings from side to side,
before disappearing off to one side. Clearly his thought processes were
"this doesn't look right, where the hell am I"

Less authoritatively...
neilmac 19th May 2007, 11:58 GA plane joining Kemble from the NW last
week,
A/C "Confirm by your threshold you have gliders"?
FISO "Last time I looked they were 747s"
A/C "Ahh Roger ..............I ll reposition for your overhead again"
Plane making approach to a nearby gliding site NM
from http://www.pprune.org/archive/index....59309-p-4.html

Or the pilot that doesn't believe we're not Kemble until he is led out
to look at the 6ft "AD" letters in the grass by the clubhouse.

Our 'Regionals visitor' went very quiet when our chairman, having found
out where the guy had come from, said that he would be down there on
business next week, that he knew their CFI very well and would be telling
him all about the incident.

That was in 2000. We've had fewer incursions recently except during the
Olympics when the airspace extension forced all the GA pilots who
normally follow the M25 round London to route further north. Most ended
up following the B428 past us, with some of the east-bound lot blasting
through our overhead rather lower than the 3K marked on the charts.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Ridgewell gliding site (UK) is just outside the controlled airspace for Stansted Airport. This is a choke point for traffic transiting from South East UK to the midlands or points west (some of which goes on to overhead Martin G’s site).

A recent airprox report included the following:
---------
Summary

An Airprox occurred in Class G airspace overhead Ridgewell gliding site between an ASW20 glider and an A210; both aircraft were flying VFR.

PART B: SUMMARY OF THE BOARD’S DISCUSSIONS

The gliding and GA members opined that the A210 pilot appeared to have either planned his flight to pass over the gliding site (through the circuit and well below the winch height), or that he had not planned well enough and was unaware of the gliding site. Both options were seen as equally dangerous and a fatal crash would almost certainly have been the result of his aircraft hitting the winch cable or a launching glider. [snip]

The Board opined that the annotation of Glider RTF on VFR charts and within the AIP ENR5.5, would greatly assist in this respect by providing a readily available contact frequency for those GA pilots who planned to fly close to glider sites, and who wished to determine their levels of gliding activity.

[Chris N note – many small UK gliding clubs do not have site base radios, or if they do, they are often not manned. There is no legal requirement for such radios. Nor is there a legal requirement for gliders or GA aircraft to carry or operate radios when flying in class G in the UK, though increasing numbers do. ]

[snip] . . . It was also noted that many of the larger gliding sites can have winching up to 3000ft agl.

Ridgewell is marked as a gliding site on the 1:250,000 and 1:500,000 series charts and so it is reasonable to expect the A210 pilot to have known of its presence; he would have been prudent to have given the site a wider berth, especially as he was flying at around normal circuit height. In addition, the onus was on the A210 pilot to give way to the glider, although the lack of any enhanced conspicuity features on both aircraft would have made visual acquisition by both pilots more difficult. Although there was likely to have been around 200ft between the aircraft, the A210 flew directly over the gliding site and over the ASW20, whose pilot had few options to avoid the other aircraft. The A210 pilot did not see the glider; the glider pilot saw the A210 and assessed that his flight path would keep him clear, albeit with safety margins much reduced below the normal. The Board concurred and assessed the Risk as B.

---------------

I have seen many similar airprox reports over the years. There are typically a few every year (about 5 in 2009, the last year for which I found an analysis I did for the BGA). Interestingly, most of the infringing powered aircraft in recent years had transponders on and working. If gliding clubs invested in Zaon MRX or similar transponder detectors at the launch point or the winch, they would almost always give more warning of incoming infringers before the lookout person at the launch point could see them coming. We have one at Ridgewell, which I have tested on the ground and seen nearby traffic indicated several miles away. Unfortunately, no other UK gliding club has copied this (AFAIK), in spite of frequent incidents such as Martin and I have mentioned; our own unit has seldom been deployed, though some of us are trying to change that, but Zaon are now closed, I understand, so another manufacturer would be needed before any new transponder detectors could be so deployed.

Chris N

On Sunday, January 12, 2014 11:51:54 AM UTC-6, Chris Nicholas wrote:
If gliding clubs invested in Zaon MRX or similar transponder detectors at the launch point or the winch, they would almost always give more warning of incoming infringers before the lookout person at the launch point could see them coming. We have one at Ridgewell, which I have tested on the ground and seen nearby traffic indicated several miles away. Unfortunately, no other UK gliding club has copied this (AFAIK), in spite of frequent incidents such as Martin and I have mentioned; our own unit has seldom been deployed, though some of us are trying to change that, but Zaon are now closed, I understand, so another manufacturer would be needed before any new transponder detectors could be so deployed.


Chris, a PowerFLARM would accomplish the same thing (and more), albeit at a significantly higher cost. You would get the same Mode A/C transponder detection as the MRX, along with Mode S and ADS-B (actual position, not just range); plus any FLARM-equipped glider or tug in the vicinity.

If overflying traffic is a concern, that would be my approach - would be like having your own ATC radar on the field.

Kirk
66

Kirk, thanks. Yes, I know about PF, but if I could not persuade clubs to spend 400 Sterling/600 USD on the MRX, there is no hope that they would buy PFs.

Actual collisions between gliders and unrelated power (i.e. excluding tugs) are very few in the UK – 5 in the last 43 years as far as I can tell from all known record sources, and only one of those was with a glider during winch launch. Although that one was fatal (2 glider pilots killed), clubs don’t see it as a big enough problem to spend money and effort on, beyond the usual lookout.

Chris N