Towpilots ignoring turn signals

At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

A plane's width? Not nearly enough! Seriously, you need to get WAY out there,smoothly, and stay there until the tow pilot notices the yaw and lets you drag his tail around - which he will to by simply taking his feet off the rudder pedals. But a radio is really better....

But it's always a good idea to talk to your tow pilot after a tow where anything goes out of the ordinary. Better yet, brief him before the tow, and practice some signals in both direction, including slowly deploying your spoilers (looking for the rudder waggle) and ending with a simulated engine power loss and rock-off at release altitude; makes the tow more interesting for both parties.

Kirk
66

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:05:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
A plane's width? Not nearly enough!

i've never had to go further out than wingtip-to-wingtip to steer the tow pilot.

it was obvious that he didn't care a whit anyway, and Dan is right, he probably would have gut me loose if I'da drug his tail around.

Different Dan - not me! I'll take the glider anywhere he wants to go
and be relieved of any responsibility for him getting off in a poor
location.

Most glider pilots know that the local tow pilot knows where the house
thermals are. He's also just landed from several tows and knows the
current conditions. I really hate it when a glider pilot complains that
I "dropped him off in sink". It is he, not I who pulled the release!

Getting off track...

On 4/29/2015 7:34 PM, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:05:07 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
A plane's width? Not nearly enough!
i've never had to go further out than wingtip-to-wingtip to steer the tow pilot.

it was obvious that he didn't care a whit anyway, and Dan is right, he probably would have gut me loose if I'da drug his tail around.

--
Dan Marotta

Originally Posted by kirk.stant

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

A plane's width? Not nearly enough! Seriously, you need to get WAY out there,smoothly, and stay there until the tow pilot notices the yaw and lets you drag his tail around - which he will to by simply taking his feet off the rudder pedals. But a radio is really better....

But it's always a good idea to talk to your tow pilot after a tow where anything goes out of the ordinary. Better yet, brief him before the tow, and practice some signals in both direction, including slowly deploying your spoilers (looking for the rudder waggle) and ending with a simulated engine power loss and rock-off at release altitude; makes the tow more interesting for both parties.

Kirk
66

Spot on in everything you have said in this post.....as a tow pilot with over 1200 tows in the last 6 months I have seen every thing imaginable in back of me...As a glider pilot I know every house thermal locally and try to take new, non local pilots to the best lift. I also try to take them to thermals being worked by other glider pilots but I will not take you completely into that thermal, just close enough to join. Some show up with hand held radios with weak batteries incapable of contacting the tow plane 200 feet ahead. I'm fine with a tail tug but as pointed out, it must be smooth and adequate enough to be recognized, when I'm standing on the rudder I will get the message, just don't do it too low...after 1000 feet it's okay. That being said, many glider pilots fly so out of position that one cannot tell what their intentions might be. I've given the wing wag telling the glider to get off with no response.....when there is a solid overcast and I'm within 500 feet of the bottoms I will let you know with the proper signal....you do NOT have the option to ignore my signal as I might also have something wrong with my tug...We try to give everyone the best service we can under the conditions in which we fly. Perhaps there should be a new FAA requirement that ALL glider pilots spend some time in a two place tug flying tow, they might gain an appreciation for what the tow pilot does. We have had one guy with tons of flying experience qualify and fly 3 tows only to declare that flying tow is for DARE DEVILS, and give it up. .... I've only had one bad experience with someone getting way high on me, I can tell you it's not a pleasant situation and he came very close to getting dropped..... Remember folks, if the tug pilot doesn't show up......you're going nowhere.

Walt Connelly
Tow Pilot/ Commercial Glider Pilot and all round nice guy.

As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.

Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.

Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb.

I had inexperienced tow pilots wanting take me for a joy ride more than once on my nickel.
Signals on tow weather by steering or radio is standard practice that all should be familiar with prior to flying a glider or tow plane.
6PK

Steering turns are standard practice. When I'm on tow, and want to turn
(or not!), I try the radio first. If the tuggie doesn't do as I ask, I
try steering him. If that doesn't work, I just go where he takes me and
I'll talk to him after landing. When I'm flying the tug, I'll turn as
the glider pilot asks, even if I know there's something better elsewhere.

On 4/29/2015 3:48 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.

Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb.

--
Dan Marotta

Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to the desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope" unless there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider in tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified tow pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the
glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax
the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to
the
desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on
tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated
pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope"
unless
there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider
in
tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified
tow
pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?