Glider Fatality in WA

It seems "old" power pilots used to keep nose high when having too much
altitude, close to stalling, in order to maximise drag. This obviously is
not the right way to react with a glider (or any ship with decent
airbrakes), and has caused some other accidents already ...
Jean

"Richard Branch" a écrit dans
le message de ...
I don't normally comment on these posts for fear of upsetting someone, but
in this instance it is clear the report is confused, one does not crash
after a stall because of having too "much" altitude. Rich...

Joe had been flying for a few hours in his motorglider, came in for
landing with too much altitude, stalled and crashed.

Over the years I have become convinced that the way accidental stalls happen
is very different than the way stalls are frequently taught. Pulling the
nose way up and waiting for the break is just not how it happens. If stalls
are taught this way the student forms the impression that nobody but an
idiot would accidentally stall a glider.

Reducing the airspeed very slowly until the glider stalls is more like a
real situation. With a slow airspeed reduction the glider will begin to
settle in a level attitude so that the AOA increases without the nose
getting very high. The break, when it comes, is likely to be more
"interesting".

Even better is teaching stalls starting from slow flight. Flying a square
pattern at minimum controllable airspeed before applying enough backpressure
to induce a stall gives a much better demonstration of what an accidental
stall looks like. This is more likely to produce an impression that, "this
could really happen". If a pilot thinks it could happen, he will be more
cautious.

Bill Daniels


"Jean" wrote in message
...
It seems "old" power pilots used to keep nose high when having too much
altitude, close to stalling, in order to maximise drag. This obviously is
not the right way to react with a glider (or any ship with decent
airbrakes), and has caused some other accidents already ...
Jean

"Richard Branch" a écrit
dans
le message de ...
I don't normally comment on these posts for fear of upsetting someone,
but
in this instance it is clear the report is confused, one does not crash
after a stall because of having too "much" altitude. Rich...

Joe had been flying for a few hours in his motorglider, came in for
landing with too much altitude, stalled and crashed.

Bill Daniels,
You may find stall testing on the most recent version of the Pioneer IId
found on our web site which we did yesterday. I did post two interesting
photos on the Pioneer IId site accessed from our home page. This glider is
equiped with a moveable CG. The plane was tested in the rear most CG
position.


http://www.continuo.com/marske


We filmed the attempt stalls and have numerous stills from that filming. I
had great difficulty doing a gradual stall at first and had to resort to an
accelerated stall to get it to break. We now have the stall starting at the
tips and progressing slowly down the wing. Surprisingly the stalled wing
does not break immediately, and even with a down aileron to increase the
angle of attack, the wing experiences more of a yawing motion and
eventually dropping. As the pilot in this testing I felt very comfortable
and in control at all times even in the a turning stall.

I have also investigated the death rate in gliders and it does indicate that
those gliders that will spin will kill more pilots. Something to be said for
gliders that do not stall!

Something of note in the filming of the Pioneer was the fact that the Chase
plane, a grob 103 could not keep up in the lift to the Pioneer and I had to
repeatedly deploy the spoilers or move outside any lift. On a run to about
90 mph the Grob and Pioneer seemed fairly well matched. This is actually
very good considering the wing loading of the Pioneer IId at about 3.8
lbs/sq ft compared the the Grob at over 7 lbs/sq ft.

-mat
Marske Flying Wings
http://www.continuo.com/marske

It seems "old" power pilots used to keep nose high when having too much
altitude, close to stalling, in order to maximise drag. This obviously is
not the right way to react with a glider (or any ship with decent
airbrakes), and has caused some other accidents already ...

Comment:

I am an old power pilot and I do not know anyone who ever used that method.
The forward slip has been used by pilots since about WW I to lose altitude.
Some of today's new motorgliders do not have spoilers and slips may be used
in their place.

I do not know the facts about the accident, and cannot comment on what
actually happened.

There are few or no "old" pilots who lose altitude close to the ground by
mushing the aircraft near a stall. That might work for Ercoupes, where it
was impossible to cross-control.

Colin


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"COLIN LAMB" wrote in message hlink.net...
It seems "old" power pilots used to keep nose high when having too much
altitude, close to stalling, in order to maximise drag. This obviously is
not the right way to react with a glider (or any ship with decent
airbrakes), and has caused some other accidents already ...



While not a commonly used technique it is a trick that many
experienced power pilots have up there sleeve. It works very well in
large Flapped cessna's where slips are not recommended. While
increasing drag is a secondary affect of slowing down on final. The
primary effect is a twist on the Speed to Fly that glider pilots
should be well aware of. It is not very effective in no wind and can
even be counter productive in a tailwind situation but by slowing down
on final with a headwind the approach angle can be significantly
steepened by slowing down to a minimum airspeed on final. At about
200-300 feet AGL the nose is lowered to bring the airspeed back up to
a normal approach speed to allow enough energy to flare with.

Anyone intentionally performing this maneuver should be well all aware
of the dangers of stalling at low altitude and should be well prepared
to recover from it. I doubt many accidents can be attributed to pilot
intentionally performing this maneuver.

With Dive Brakes it is questionable if this technique is any better
than just speeding up and using the additional drag caused by the
excess speed on the dive brakes. Remember Drag goes exponentially with
speed.

IMO: Most Stall Spin Accidents are caused more by the Illusion of
speed and/or a nose low attitude. These can be caused by flying
downwind, close to the ground and unfamiliar or obscured horizons. In
these situations the pilot is not thinking a stall is even a
possibility. The airplane stalls and the pilot responds with the
incorrect control inputs because the possibility of the aircraft
stalling when it appears to be nose down and moving fast does not even
seem possible to the pilot. I think most of these pilots hit the
ground wondering what is wrong with the airplane or that something
broke. Perhaps there are a few survivors that can confirm or debunk
my theory.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

On 24 Jun 2004 13:14:39 -0700, (Brian Case) wrote:

....snippage...

With Dive Brakes it is questionable if this technique is any better
than just speeding up and using the additional drag caused by the
excess speed on the dive brakes. Remember Drag goes exponentially with
speed.

My guess is that stuffing the nose down while holding full airbrake
only works well with a really draggy glider. It works a treat in an
ASW-20, which doesn't slip well in landing flap, but OTOH full brakes
and a decent slip while maintaining normal approach airspeed works
well in a Discus, Pegase or DG-300.

IMO: Most Stall Spin Accidents are caused more by the Illusion of
speed and/or a nose low attitude. These can be caused by flying
downwind, close to the ground and unfamiliar or obscured horizons. In
these situations the pilot is not thinking a stall is even a
possibility.

Get into the habit of monitoring your ASI and ignoring the apparent
speed of the scenery on finals.

I'm also tempted to say that if the ASI isn't near the centre of the
top row in the panel (and top centre in an ASW-19 or 20) then its time
to redesign and rebuild the panel.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

COLIN LAMB wrote:
It seems "old" power pilots used to keep nose high when having too much
altitude, close to stalling, in order to maximise drag. ...

Comment:

I am an old power pilot and I do not know anyone who ever used that method.

I was taught this method when I was getting checked out in a Citabria.
It was principally used while still "reasonably" high on final when
there was a headwind and you were too high. It worked well enough when
it was demonstrated to me but I've never done it on my own - nor do I
intend to. Slow and close to the ground on a windy day seems unwise, to
say the least.

Tony V.

Richard Branch wrote:
I don't normally comment on these posts for fear of upsetting someone, but
in this instance it is clear the report is confused, one does not crash
after a stall because of having too "much" altitude. Rich...

Joe had been flying for a few hours in his motorglider, came in for
landing with too much altitude, stalled and crashed.

I interpreted the report to mean "too much altitude [for a normal
landing - an overshoot situation]", but this can still be too low to
make safe turns or recover from a stall. This is especially true for a
2100' long runway.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Fair enough...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glider Pilot Network"
To: "Richard Branch"
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: [r.a.s] Glider Fatality in WA


------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Glider Fatality in WA
Author: Jean
Date/Time: 14:10 24 June 2004
------------------------------------------------------------
It seems "old" power pilots used to keep nose high when having too much
altitude, close to stalling, in order to maximise drag. This obviously
is
not the right way to react with a glider (or any ship with decent
airbrakes), and has caused some other accidents already ...
Jean

"Richard Branch" a écrit dans
le message de ...
I don't normally comment on these posts for fear of upsetting someone,
but
in this instance it is clear the report is confused, one does not crash
after a stall because of having too "much" altitude. Rich...

landing with too much altitude, stalled and crashed.







------------------------------------------------------------

(Mark Nyberg) wrote in message . com...
On Sunday afternoon June 19th Joseph Patton died in a glider accident
at Bergseth Field near Enumclaw, WA. Joe had been flying for a few
hours in his motorglider, came in for landing with too much altitude,
stalled and crashed. Joe died instantly.

There will be a visitation (opportunity to pay last respects and talk
with his family) on Friday June 25th from 4 to 8 PM at the
Bonney-Watson Funeral Home. The funeral home is located at 1732
Broadway (between Denny and Pine, across the street from the Seattle
Central Community College) in Seattle on Capitol Hill. Parking is
available on the north side of the funeral home.

Funeral Services will be held in the chapel at that same funeral home
on Saturday June 26th at 11:00 AM.

Having been involved with gliding for only two years I find it
difficult to understand this type of landing/stall accident. Of
course we do not have very much information but stalling a glider in
practice seems to give plenty of warning yet this type of landing
accident seems to be happening very frequently.