Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

Because we're running a club and training operation, not a contest launch.

There are plenty of circumstances in which student plus instructor might need an extra five seconds to sort something out. Absent the rudder wag, your only recourse at "all out" is hit the release. That's not very efficient.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 9:33:29 PM UTC-4, Dave Springford wrote:
Why the rudder waggle?

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:53:15 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
Kirk makes good points.

Here's what we do at Post Mills. We've made converts out of three other clubs in the region. It works well.

Our signal to take up slack is to level the wings of the glider. The wing runner "confirms" this by giving the take up slack signal as slack taking proceeds. As slack comes out, wing runner raises arm vertically, wing stays level. When ready to begin the launch, the glider gives a rudder wag, confirmed by the wing runner windmilling his arm. The tow pilot acknowledges with a brief rudder wag, then begins the take off.

Efficient, water ballast compatible, easy for everyone involved to see and understand. Why isn't the SSF teaching this?

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8

We use the following;
Wing down: Stop. Not ready to go.
Wing rocking: shoulder to knee- Ready to go- take up slack
Wings level. Ready to go- take off- all out.
All are visible in shaking mirror and not easily mistaken
If at any time operation needs to stop. - Wing down.
All pilots trained from the get go to pull the release if rope comes tight with wing down.
We teach rudder wag for purposes of standardization so our pilots know what may be expected at other sites.
FWIW
UH

The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is on the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.

At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
on
the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.


The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
misunderstanding.

There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.

Doesn't the USA have something similar?

Chris

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 7:45:06 AM UTC+11, Chris Rowland wrote:
At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
on
the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.


The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
misunderstanding.

There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.

Doesn't the USA have something similar?

Chris

Aah, but you're in the UK. The USA is the land of individualism, where a nationally adopted procedure might be seen as some kind of socialist imposition :-)



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Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

We often fly with water ballast at Moriarty, and some pilots prefer to bring their gliders to the launch line with wing wheels still in place, due to venting issues. With one wing down, water leaks from the wing at a pretty fast rate on some gliders. This can cause an imbalance, so we don't mind keeping the wing level as much as possible. As a result, we do not teach tow pilots that "wings level" implies anything at all. On the other hand, if the wing runner puts the wing DOWN, that means "HOLD!" Plus, there is a two arms up (crossed or held out) to signal a halt to operations.

Has it happened that slack was taken up or a t/o roll started with no one in the glider AND a wing runner signaling to do so? I'm guessing so.

In any case, when in Rome, do as the Romans! In other words, if you are new to an operation, brief.

“The pilot of the towing aircraft and the glider have agreed upon a
general course of action, including takeoff and release signals,
airspeeds, and emergency procedures for each pilot.�

I'd like to propose some r.a.s. hand signals.

I want dibs on the middle finger symbol.

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:20:56 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:



At one of the clubs where I regularly fly, they use the standard SSA signals, however, they leave the wingtip on the ground while the wing runner signals to take up slack. Once the slack is out, they signal a brief stop and then the wing runner turns a complete circle to view the entire airspace around the launch. If that shows no other traffic that would be a problem, the wing runner checks for a thumbs up from the pilot and then lifts the wingtip and gives the takeoff signal.

I believe that doing an intentional stop after taking out slack makes it far easier for the wing runner to make a full survey of the airspace, without juggling a wingtip during the check. It only takes seconds, but I believe it adds to safety.