Dream Panel

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

Tom

AFAIK both of these TN72 "models" are the same actual device. I understand Trig did this packaging change to try to avoid confusion about use for TABS and 2020 Compliance in different aircraft with the same GPS Source. Trying to make it clearer that the TN72 can be used for TABS in some aircraft (e..g. mostly only really makes sense for gliders with their ADS-B out exemption), and can be used for full 2020 Compliant ADS-B out in (experimental and light-sports) others. I understand their likely frustration with the bureaucracy that creates this insanity but I disagree that repackaging the TN72 into two different models is the best way to help avoid confusion (it may create more). I tried to encourage them to just provide clearer information online and in documentation. But here we are. Anyhow for now at least, its best to order whatever TN72 version is appropriate and make sure all the documentation in the kit is correct for he intended use.

OTOH I really appreciate all that Trig did in getting USA compatible ADS-B Out going so early in their products. The FAA air survey King Airs etc. were flying with Trig ADS-B Out systems early on, so we know their stuff really works well, and Trig does provide good support for the glider community in the USA.

On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
Circuit breakers (not fuses)
ROY

I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.

I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.

One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.

Best of luck.

John OHM Ω

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation..derosaweb.net wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
Circuit breakers (not fuses)
ROY

I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.

I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.

One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.

Best of luck.

John OHM Ω

John,

My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.

Tom

And on modern Schleicher panels many folks are installing Klixon breakers into the top of leg tunnel area under the panel. That is what I would do. That gets breakers off the panel and leaves a few fuses. The exact way to do this is point at John's ASH26Mi and ask Rex to install breakers *exactly* like that, just a beautiful engineered breaker mount block. The wiring is also likely to be much better done that way as well with long row of breakers and somple supply sude bus.

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
Circuit breakers (not fuses)
ROY

I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.

I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers.. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.

One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.

Best of luck.

John OHM Ω

John,

My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.

Tom

Klixon breakers are rated for 5000 operations at full load and 30V. A decent toggle switch is rated for a lot more, but how many times are you going to switch it? That's 7 years at twice a day. A separate switch is nice, but adds wiring, takes space, and reduces reliability.

Out of curiosity, which circuits does Schleicher insist are fuses, and was there any rational to go along with it? The specs of glass fuses and good thermal breakers are functionally identical. From experience I know that Kixon breakers are more reliable than the glass fuse holders AS uses.

One more thing to point out is the micro rotary switches that AS uses for power switching are not really rated for typical currents. The ones supplied in mine (similar to NKK MRY106) were a 2A AC, 1A DC switch. I've seen lots of these in gliders. I replaced them with NKK MRT23 switches, rated for 3A DC, and paralleled the two poles for 6A.

I'd ask for a LED indicator pilot light on a couple of circuits: the Pump 2 and the Refuel Auto. These are easy to leave on and you don't want to.

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:26:02 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
Circuit breakers (not fuses)
ROY

I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.

I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.

One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.

Best of luck.

John OHM Ω

John,

My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.

Tom

Klixon breakers are rated for 5000 operations at full load and 30V. A decent toggle switch is rated for a lot more, but how many times are you going to switch it? That's 7 years at twice a day. A separate switch is nice, but adds wiring, takes space, and reduces reliability.

Out of curiosity, which circuits does Schleicher insist are fuses, and was there any rational to go along with it? The specs of glass fuses and good thermal breakers are functionally identical. From experience I know that Kixon breakers are more reliable than the glass fuse holders AS uses.

One more thing to point out is the micro rotary switches that AS uses for power switching are not really rated for typical currents. The ones supplied in mine (similar to NKK MRY106) were a 2A AC, 1A DC switch. I've seen lots of these in gliders. I replaced them with NKK MRT23 switches, rated for 3A DC, and paralleled the two poles for 6A.

I'd ask for a LED indicator pilot light on a couple of circuits: the Pump 2 and the Refuel Auto. These are easy to leave on and you don't want to.

Rex says the circuits requiring fuses by Schleicher (engine related) are a certification issue. Exactly what kind of certification issue, I don't know..

Tom

Whatever you choose (largely personal preference) I'd recommend you have Rex install and wire the panel, rather than the factory. Or do it yourself.

Air Glide S for inertial vario and wind
Biggest LX90x0 you can fit into panel
Powerflarm
AIR ACD altimeter (for transponder and radio)
AIR Traffic display for flarm alerts
Winter 80mm ASI, not the small one

At 07:32 18 July 2018, krasw wrote:
Air Glide S for inertial vario and wind
Biggest LX90x0 you can fit into panel
Powerflarm
AIR ACD altimeter (for transponder and radio)
AIR Traffic display for flarm alerts
Winter 80mm ASI, not the small one

I'd look for a radio that has a double knob for setting the frequency,
outer for MHz, inner for KHz. This will be a lot easier to use than the
ones that involve a single knob and a button to change the digit to set.
There is one of the modern small radios like this, Trig maybe.

Chris

On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
Tom

Does nobody want an adsb-in receiver and traffic display?