Dumb Reg question

That is ABSOLUTELY false. Did you really READ 61.51(e) or did you simply
parrot somebody that you didn't check for accuracy?

61.51 lists a whole LOT of folks that can log PIC time. Your scenario isn't
among them. Suggest that you READ rather than QUOTE.


Jim



FAR 61.51(e) describes who can log PIC time. In the case of a
simulated instrument flight, both the pilot under-the-hood (sole
manipulator of the controls) and the safety pilot (required crewmember
on a flight requiring more than one pilot, such as a simulated
instrument flight) can log PIC at the same time.

Charles.
-N8385U

"Slick" wrote in message ...
I've only ever flown Cessna products and I've come across an area I'm not
sure about. I have my private and I have flow 150/2 and 172's since I
starting my training. Now I might partner up with a guy in a Tomahawk next
weekend for a tour across the state. I don't have any formal training in
any
Piper products, will I be allowed to log any stick time? I don't recall
exactly how the regs layout type certification. Do I have to be signed off
and have logged instruction to be PIC in the Tomahawk? Also if I only had
time in a 150, would I have to have instruction in a 152 before I could
log
PIC?

One last question, If I fly simulated instrument with a safety pilot, does
the safety pilot have to sign my logbook? Thanks to everyone for your help
and response.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 09:09:33 -0700, "BTIZ"
wrote in Z4Oce.113$fI.16@fed1read05::

No Dumb Questions.. just hard to interpret Regs..

You are qualified for Airplane Single Engine Land... a Tomahawk is an
Airplane Single Engine Land..

With the exception of those aircraft that require the pilot to have a
Type Rating, airmen holding a private ASEL certificate may act as PIC
of any aircraft certified in that category and class.

any time you have hands on stick.. that is PIC..

All time spent as sole manipulator of the controls is logable as PIC
time. PIC time is also logable by the pilot who is acting as the
responsible PIC, IINM.

as far as the FAA is concerned.. you don't need a specific sign off..

Other than for those aircraft that require a Type Rating.

the insurance companies or rental FBO may have other ideas... specific make
and model sign offs are insurance company requirements..

If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..

any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood, you
are PIC, any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.

I believe the safety pilot usually logs SIC time in that situation,
but it would depend on who the pilots agreed would be responsible for
the flight.

I copied this out of a magazine several years ago when I was often
flying with another pilot:


Cockpit Resource Management

CRM is the effective use of all resources - hardware,
software, leadership, and humanware - to achieve safe and
efficient flight operation.

Don't divide duties as they are on most airlines. There, the
pilot becomes too dependent on a copilot, because the pilot simply
flys the aircraft, while the copilot does everything else -
radios, navigation, checklists, and backing up the pilot as to
proper altitudes and headings.

The CRM philosophy puts the onus on the pilot for
communications, checklists, and decision making. Decisions are
based on the concerns of the less comfortable pilot. The copilot
handles navigation, cross-checks the pilot's communication and
navigation frequencies for an instrument approach, and assures
that the altitude requirements are met at the final approach fix
and at minimums. The copilot still has plenty to do, managing the
aircraft's loran, RNAV radio, or handheld GPS moving map display
that is used as a backup. In addition, the copilot scans for
other traffic, keeps a running check on fields in which to land -
just in case - and keeps track of the nearest airport. The
copilot knows s/he is to support and backup the pilot and offer
help in emergency situations.

Pre-takeoff briefing is important for any flight; it can be
abbreviated, however, when another pilot is aboard. It can be as
simple as thinking out loud. If you expect the other pilot to
help with the flight, say so before takeoff. Spend several
minutes before the flight explaining to the non-pilot passenger
how to control the aircraft and how to communicate. Once in the
air, spend a few minutes letting the passenger fly. It is fun for
the passenger and gives the pilot another resource to use in case
of a medical emergency.

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:Z4Oce.113$fI.16@fed1read05...

No Dumb Questions.. just hard to interpret Regs..

Nothing difficult at all. You simply need to READ them.


You are qualified for Airplane Single Engine Land... a Tomahawk is an
Airplane Single Engine Land..

And unless the Traumahawk is covered by one of the six execeptions of the
regulations, you are good to go. HOWEVER, it is clever to prove to yourself
that you don't fall into one of the exceptions.



any time you have hands on stick.. that is PIC..

That is absolutely not true. If I ask my kid to hold onto the wheel while I
find the extra batteries, that does NOT make her the PIC. PIC is not only a
state of mind, it is a legal definition. If you are a certificated pilot
and I ask you to fly along with me as the PIC, I can ask you to fly the
airplane from Sacramento to Salt Lake while I sleep and I am still the PIC.
No matter that you flew the whole route, I am the PIC and am responsible for
the flight. When the fit hits the shan, the determination will be made as
to who was the PIC. It is NOT necessarily the person with their hands on
the controls.



If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..

I'm sure my CFI-I Betty wouldn't appreciate that comment.


any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood, you
are PIC,

Absolutely not true, as noted above.



any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.

Absolutely not true.


Jim

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:Z4Oce.113$fI.16@fed1read05...

No Dumb Questions.. just hard to interpret Regs..

Nothing difficult at all. You simply need to READ them.

Maybe you should read them...



You are qualified for Airplane Single Engine Land... a Tomahawk is an
Airplane Single Engine Land..

And unless the Traumahawk is covered by one of the six execeptions of the
regulations, you are good to go. HOWEVER, it is clever to prove to
yourself that you don't fall into one of the exceptions.


I guess you don't know what a Tomahawk is but what 6 exceptions do you refer
to?


any time you have hands on stick.. that is PIC..

That is absolutely not true. If I ask my kid to hold onto the wheel while
I find the extra batteries, that does NOT make her the PIC. PIC is not
only a state of mind, it is a legal definition. If you are a certificated
pilot and I ask you to fly along with me as the PIC, I can ask you to fly
the airplane from Sacramento to Salt Lake while I sleep and I am still the
PIC. No matter that you flew the whole route, I am the PIC and am
responsible for the flight. When the fit hits the shan, the determination
will be made as to who was the PIC. It is NOT necessarily the person with
their hands on the controls.

please re read 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator in an aircraft that he is
rated in.. may log PIC.. even if you think he is not ACTING PIC.. because
you, the PIC, is sleeping and think you are in charge.




If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety
pilot, then all you need is his name..

I'm sure my CFI-I Betty wouldn't appreciate that comment.

generic "his",, get real..


any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood,
you are PIC,

Absolutely not true, as noted above.

re read 61.51(e)(1)(i) as noted above...



any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.

Absolutely not true.

re read 61.51(e)(1)(ii) as reported in another post...

Jim


BT

Maybe you should read them...

I've been reading them...and teaching them for over forty years. And you?



I guess you don't know what a Tomahawk is but what 6 exceptions do you
refer to?

I expect that I've got more PIC hours in Tomahawks than you have total.
Something on the order of 900 hours. You, sir?


please re read 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator in an aircraft that he is
rated in.. may log PIC.. even if you think he is not ACTING PIC.. because
you, the PIC, is sleeping and think you are in charge.

Let's take this to another thread, one on point. You have the same
misguided interpretation that a lot of pilots have. It may be informative
to the group to clear this up once and for all.


generic "his",, get real..

Sexist pig. Get into this century.



any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood,
you are PIC,

Absolutely not true, as noted above.

re read 61.51(e)(1)(i) as noted above...

Reread the WHOLE of 61.51 and get a life....



Jim

BTIZ wrote:

"RST Engineering" wrote in message

That is absolutely not true. If I ask my kid to hold onto the wheel while
I find the extra batteries, that does NOT make her the PIC. PIC is not
only a state of mind, it is a legal definition. If you are a certificated
pilot and I ask you to fly along with me as the PIC, I can ask you to fly
the airplane from Sacramento to Salt Lake while I sleep and I am still the
PIC. No matter that you flew the whole route, I am the PIC and am
responsible for the flight. When the fit hits the shan, the determination
will be made as to who was the PIC. It is NOT necessarily the person with
their hands on the controls.


please re read 61.51(e)(1)(i).. sole manipulator in an aircraft that he is
rated in.. may log PIC.. even if you think he is not ACTING PIC.. because
you, the PIC, is sleeping and think you are in charge.

Your confusion is between "being the PIC" and "logging PIC time". They
aren't synonymous. You can log PIC during times that you aren't the
pilot in command of the flight.


Matt

RST Engineering wrote:



If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..


I'm sure my CFI-I Betty wouldn't appreciate that comment.


Jim



Jim... Instruction is logged with an endorsement by the instructor.
Safety Pilot just requires recording of the name.. (and that means it
can be in anyone's handwriting). Chapter and verse below. I am presuming
you are contesting the signing versus recording of the name, not the
gender issue you also seem to be alluding to.

Dave

61.51.g.3.ii

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent
instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the
following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

61.51.H.2.i

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when
that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an
aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

BTIZ wrote:


If you are under the hood and have a rated pilot acting as a safety pilot,
then all you need is his name..
any time you are flying with hands on stick, with or without the hood, you
are PIC, any time you are under the hood, he may log PIC (acting pic) even
though he may never touch the stick.

BT


This is a NIT-pick but its an IMPORTANT one..

The Safety pilot is considered a required crew-member and under that
role is considered Second In Command or SIC. So he can log it as SIC.

If the pilot-flying (hood pilot) AND the Safety Pilot BOTH agree that
the Safety Pilot "IS" the "Pilot in Command" for the period the
pilot-flying is under the hood, THEN the safety pilot can log it as PIC.
You need to agree beforehand. This is usually not of consequence UNTIL
or UNLESS something goes wrong: you break or bend something, the plane
busts airspace, a near-midair occurs and is reported.. etc..

That can expose the Safety Pilot to accountability as the PIC.

Reality is.. the hood pilot and the safety pilot both log and claim
PIC.. just understand what the implications are when you do it.

Dave

It IS a nit-pick, and an important one.

The pilot under the hood can log PIC time and the safety pilot can log
second in command time.

The safety pilot can log PIC time and the pilot under the hood can log
second in command time.

They CANNOT BOTH LOG PIC time at the same time.

Jim




This is a NIT-pick but its an IMPORTANT one..

RST Engineering wrote:

They CANNOT BOTH LOG PIC time at the same time.

under which regs? if you mean good ol' FAA, then
you are wrong;

--Sylvain

ps actually, I once was in a flight where three of
us did log PIC time *at the same time* and perfectly
legally: exercice to the readers: describe the situation :-)