The effects of Ethanol on...

Ken you are assuming that you are going to get this mixture cheaper. In
fact it might even be more expensive than straight av gas. The difference
would be is that it would be available. The avgas you currently burn may
not be either by regulation or supply.

Aviation is shrinking so fast that there will come a time when the oil
companies are no longer making enough of it to justify its continued
production. It may not be far off.

The big difference between cars and airplanes when dealing with these types
of issues is the lifespan of the product. How many people junk a 10 year
old airplane? Lots of junk 10 year old cars. We want an airplane to last
for 50 not 10 years. Even a slight problems become major with time. An
auto is just not intended to be in service that long (though some are as the
collector car business is doing well) .
"Ken Chaddock" wrote in message
news:Op45g.2173$cZ3.1590@clgrps13...
I think Scott's attitude is more realistic than Denny's. Alcohol based
fuels, be it 100% alcohol or a mix of alcohol and gasoline, are on the
way. Simply from the cost perspective, I don't know about you guys, but
I've had to cut back on flying time because of the outrageous cost of
avgas and would be quite happy if I could get a safe, effective alcohol
based fuel at half (or less) the cost!
As to production, demand will drive production and we'll have as much as
we can use when we demand it. They're doing it in Brazil, so effectively
that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they don't have
much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small portion of
their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the same in North
America.
GM is already building hybrid alcohol/gasoline engines so many of the
"problems" noted have probably already been solved and the remainder won't
be far behind...so get ready for it, it's on the way and rather sooner
than later I (hope) think...

...Ken

Scott wrote:
Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and some
good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably with
some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's RV
series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I am
very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe transition to
ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

mark wrote:

Ken you are assuming that you are going to get this mixture cheaper. In
fact it might even be more expensive than straight av gas. The difference
would be is that it would be available. The avgas you currently burn may
not be either by regulation or supply.

That's not how it's played out in places that have invested heavily in
alcohol fuels. In Brazil for example, fuel grade alcohol sells for about
1/5th the cost of gasoline.
In North America, regulation will likely prevent gouging since there
will not only be supply-side issues but also environmental issues and if
environmentally sensitive governments want people to switch to alcohol
it's likely they will move to prevent excess "profit taking"

Aviation is shrinking so fast that there will come a time when the oil
companies are no longer making enough of it to justify its continued
production. It may not be far off.

That's possible certainly but one of the reasons aviation is shrinking
is the cost of avgas. When I started flying I could fill up a C-172 for
a cool $15.00...and while I make a lot more now than I did then, fuel
costs are a significantly higher proportion of my per-hour flying costs
than they were was back then...When I'm sitting around the club, the
main bitch I hear is the cost of fuel and how it's keeping so many on
the ground...

The big difference between cars and airplanes when dealing with these types
of issues is the lifespan of the product. How many people junk a 10 year
old airplane? Lots of junk 10 year old cars. We want an airplane to last
for 50 not 10 years. Even a slight problems become major with time. An
auto is just not intended to be in service that long (though some are as the
collector car business is doing well) .

These are all just technical problems that can (and I expect) will be
solved. It remains to be seen whether the solutions will be affordable
for general aviation...

....Ken

They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.

When I stayed in Brazil for a few months building motorgliders at Aeromot
and hanging out with the engineers, I was informed that auto engines there
(eg. 1.4, 1.6L VW Golfs, no, nothing to do with 'thats because they are
VW's') were lasting on average around 60,000km using the high blend ethanol
fuel (the one that costs 1/5th the price of normal fuel).

We all fuss and potter over our aircraft engines and always seem to have our
fingers in there making sure that all is well, and more often than not they
are fine for their lifespan. How many 'average' people would take the cover
off their 'eco' car engine to make sure that the timing is right, check the
sparks plugs etc? More often than not, they just run.
I am certainly not confident in taking the heads off a car engine to see the
affects of Ethanol on the pistons/valves, yet more often than not, people
seem much more at ease taking the heads off their Rotax or Jabiru engine to
have a bit of a look.
I guess this is a whole different topic, though eventually will we get
reports in on what is happening to the insides of the engines.

Time will tell.

Chris

What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of it through the engine to keep from running
lean. How does fuel consumption compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?

On Sat, 6 May 2006 22:04:30 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.

Brazil has a lot of sugar cane which yields far more alcohol than corn
and lends itself well to mechanized growing and harvesting.


When I stayed in Brazil for a few months building motorgliders at Aeromot
and hanging out with the engineers, I was informed that auto engines there
(eg. 1.4, 1.6L VW Golfs, no, nothing to do with 'thats because they are
VW's') were lasting on average around 60,000km using the high blend ethanol
fuel (the one that costs 1/5th the price of normal fuel).

Here we'd expect current VW engines to last 150 to 200,000 miles
depending on how they are driven.


We all fuss and potter over our aircraft engines and always seem to have our
fingers in there making sure that all is well, and more often than not they
are fine for their lifespan. How many 'average' people would take the cover
off their 'eco' car engine to make sure that the timing is right, check the

That eco engine is far, far more complex than any standard aircraft
engines I've seen. Some run very high compression (as much as 13:1
for gas) with variable cam timing, variable solid state ignition
timing, and high pressure fuel injection. On some that is even timed.

sparks plugs etc? More often than not, they just run.
I am certainly not confident in taking the heads off a car engine to see the
affects of Ethanol on the pistons/valves, yet more often than not, people
seem much more at ease taking the heads off their Rotax or Jabiru engine to
have a bit of a look.

Yup!

I guess this is a whole different topic, though eventually will we get
reports in on what is happening to the insides of the engines.

I've seen a few reports that said the cylinders and combustion
chambers were still shiny after many miles. However I have heard
nothing of fuel tanks, lines, or fuel injection systems.

If those mileage life time figures hold true those engines are lasting
a fraction of what we'd expect here. OTOH they may not be the same
engines we are seeing, but most of today's engines (even out of
Detroit or where ever they get them) seem to last a very long time
with very little maintenance.

My Wife's old Eagle Summit which got into the low 30 MPG range when it
was in its early years still gets close to 30 with nigh onto 200,000
miles. It's had a couple of water pumps, brakes, many tires, and the
heater finally gave up, but it still starts and runs well.

Bio-diesel might be the way to go in many areas, but I think we are
fast approaching the point were it is going to cease to be
inexpensive. It's a good use for soybeans and for scrap cooking oil.
There are reports of truckers getting a couple MPG improvement using
the stuff compared to standard diesel and when you are only getting 6
or 7 MPG that could be substantial savings. OTOH they have to add
alcohol to the stuff up here in the frozen north during winters or the
stuff gels in the lines and tanks.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Time will tell.

Chris

"ventus2" wrote in message
...
Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested
in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise
they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what
effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could
just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris


I am not really sure whether or not I want to either, because I believe that
it really is four issues in one. I am going to list all four; but I
strongly believe that the third and fourth are the most important:
1) Ethanol and Methanol, as well as other "oxigenators", when used in
high concentrations, affect different materials in different ways than
"pure" gasoline manufactured in accordance with the appropriate
specification. That's a lot of mumbo-jumbo to say that they are chemically
different, and I am not a chemist either...
2) Ethanol and Methanol are hydroscopic. The most obvious is that you
can not drain water out of the fuel. The good new is that a small amount of
water in the blended fuel won't cause a complete loss of power, although it
will cause a power reduction. A small amount of alcohol, or a large amount
of blended fuel, can also be added to absorb the last traces of water which
might be present after sumping the tanks. I believe that is how "Prist"
works, and I already know that it is not approved for gasoline powered
aircraft engines.
3) According to the EAA web site, the "autofuel" STC permits the use of
fuel conforming to ASTM Specification D-4814 and/or D-439. Oxigenated fuels
and do not conform. Therefore, I presume, in order for oxigeated fuels to
be approved, the entire STC certification program would have to be
duplicated with oxigenated fuels. That might be required for each
"oxigenate".
For information regarding the current STC, see:
http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/stc.html
4) Fuel is ordinarily taxed "at the pump" based on where it is purchased;
so that, even though there is no such thing as untaxed fuel, it is possible
to pay the taxes into the wrong account. Therefore, if you buy gasoline at
your local marina or automotive filling station, and then truck it to the
airport for your airplane, you are probably adding the wrong kind of fuel to
the debate over user fees!

The issue not mentioned above, because it is not part of the alcohol issue,
is that the original purpose of the STC program was to make 80 octane fuel
available to all aircraft operators. Engines operated on higher octane fuel
than that which is required run hotter, require more maintenance, and are
more subject to fouling. That is not a good combination, so there was a
clear need which still exists.

Peter

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris


It also has a high vapour pressure, making vapour lock at altitude a
serious risk.

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...
....
It also has a high vapour pressure, making vapour lock at altitude a
serious risk.



Actually, the vapor pressure with ethanol is lower than gasoline - the
problem is with gasoline /ethanol blends - the vapor pressure of the mixture
tends to peak at about 10% ethanol. The problem then is that if you get a
fair ammount of ethanol in your tank, add some straight gasoline, then the
vapor pressure of the mixture will be higher than either on it's own. A real
problem if you want to build a "flex fuel" control system that will run on
anything from gasoline to E85...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris


This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

Andy Asberry wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:



This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.