Landings question

Your description of the way to give a student a look
at the picture they shoul see and therefore the attitude
they should have is spot on. In addition I used to
point out that the point to which they raise their
eyes from looking at the reference point before they
make the attitude change must be as far as their percieved
horizon. If they choose a point too close I would point
out that when they pitch the nose up if the point is
too close they will not be able to see it and therefore
there is a tendency not to pitch up far enough in order
keep their chosen point in view.

At 13:12 09 September 2006, Papa3 wrote:

Cats wrote:
I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent
landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently -
and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with
forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off
and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.



I have students sit in the glider while two other folks
stand outside:
one levels the wings, the other one stands at the tail.
We then lift
the tail to the pitch attitude that approximates approach
speed to get
a good feel for that sight picture. I ask the student
to carefully
pick some reference points and try to ingrain those
in his/her mind.
We then rotate to landing attitude and to the same.
I really want the
person to get the idea that they rotat to a certain
attitude and then
hold there while speed bleeds off. Obviously, this
isn't perfect,
since the rotation really needs to happen a little
bit higher up
(grin), but it does give the sense for the amount of
pitch change
required.

Depending on the aircraft, the rotation can be pretty
significant (e.g.
a 2-33) or pretty subtle (e.g. a G103).

I definitely agree that getting yourself to focus on
a point in the
distance (e.g. tree tops at the far end of the runway)
makes this whole
process easier. Whatever you do, spend some time on
the ground in the
airplane fooling around with this.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3

p.s. A good friend of mine did the same thing for me
when I was trying
to learn to fly taildraggers in a J3 Cub. It was
really helpful to
get a sense for the min and max pitch attitudes required.

Private wrote:

It is said by many that the route to good landings is practice, practice,
practice. The key is not to keep practicing your mistakes. Learning to
land in gliders is difficult because it is hard (and expensive) to do enough
of them.

I didn't find this to be true when I was an active CFIG; in fact, our
tow pilot (an airplane instructor) once remarked at how quickly glider
pilots learned to land compared to a student in airplanes. I think the
biggest difference, at least when I was teaching, was we had a 5 to 10
minute discussion after every landing as we pushed the glider back to
the launch point, and sometimes continued the discussion at the launch
point, even if the tow plane was back and ready to tow. This discussion
was very important, because the student had some time to think about the
previous landing, then learned to identify what when wrong and why, and
decide how to correct it.

Most students could do a decent landing in our Blanik after 15 flights,
starting with deciding when to break off the airwork and return to the
airport, entering the pattern, and finally, the actual "landing". I say
"landing" because I think the landing starts with the decision to land,
not the flare.

Contrast this with the "airplane" method, which often involves landing
after landing (touch and goes), with little discussion or time for
reflection. Eventually, the student is able to manage a landing, but
isn't really confident that he/she knows what is right.

Tows are expensive and we seldom make more than a small number of
landings in a training day. IMHE the best way to learn to land is with a
GOOD CFI, in a light tailwheel aircraft and at a small quiet airport. This
will allow you to make many landings in an hour and is much more cost and
time effective than purchasing tows.

I haven't tried this technique, so I can't compare it to the glider-only
method, but the $$ will depend greatly on details of charges for the
tows, glider, and CFIG.

Gliders require ground crews for
assistance and it is hard to get more than 4 landings /hr.

We did it with the student, the instructor (me), and the tow pilot,
using unassisted takeoffs. Easy in the Blanik on 75'-100' wide pavement.
The first 3 launches were usually with a wing runner, though.

An aircraft
needs no assistance and can easily make 12 or more landings in an hour, and
the cost per landing will be a small fraction of the cost of gliders + tows.

If the discussion and reflection take place between the landings, I
think this would be effective. I know Derek Piggot thinks a motorglider
is ideal for initial training for the reasons mentioned.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JaMMg.924$FS.290@trnddc04...
Private wrote:

It is said by many that the route to good landings is practice, practice,
practice. The key is not to keep practicing your mistakes. Learning to
land in gliders is difficult because it is hard (and expensive) to do
enough of them.

I didn't find this to be true when I was an active CFIG; in fact, our tow
pilot (an airplane instructor) once remarked at how quickly glider pilots
learned to land compared to a student in airplanes. I think the biggest
difference, at least when I was teaching, was we had a 5 to 10 minute
discussion after every landing as we pushed the glider back to the launch
point, and sometimes continued the discussion at the launch point, even if
the tow plane was back and ready to tow. This discussion was very
important, because the student had some time to think about the previous
landing, then learned to identify what when wrong and why, and decide how
to correct it.

Most students could do a decent landing in our Blanik after 15 flights,
starting with deciding when to break off the airwork and return to the
airport, entering the pattern, and finally, the actual "landing". I say
"landing" because I think the landing starts with the decision to land,
not the flare.

Contrast this with the "airplane" method, which often involves landing
after landing (touch and goes), with little discussion or time for
reflection. Eventually, the student is able to manage a landing, but isn't
really confident that he/she knows what is right.

I was advised against making touch and goes as they rob the student of
needed practice in the rollout which is the most important part of a
tailwheel landing. I was advised to do stop and goes, and while my stops
were seldom complete they did give me time to reconfigure the aircraft
properly for takeoff. I often notice that pilots doing T&Gs land too fast
and are unable to hold the nosewheel off in a proper (improperly named, full
stall) mains first landing. Some say this is the difference between
tricycle gear (a perfect approach but where the pilot quits flying when the
wheels touch) and a tailwheel (where the wheels touch and then the pilot
gets busy). I did find that the best practice was chopping power on
downwind and making a curving 180 to spot landing (with only a brief power
burst for engine clearing) and using slips for altitude control. At a
controlled field it is called a simulated engine failure and (if approved by
ATC) can allow slipping in front of other aircraft on a typical long
circuit.

Tows are expensive and we seldom make more than a small number of
landings in a training day. IMHE the best way to learn to land is with a
GOOD CFI, in a light tailwheel aircraft and at a small quiet airport.
This will allow you to make many landings in an hour and is much more
cost and time effective than purchasing tows.

I haven't tried this technique, so I can't compare it to the glider-only
method, but the $$ will depend greatly on details of charges for the tows,
glider, and CFIG.

Agreed. Many club operations have very resonable glider rental rates and
the CFIG is often a volunteer but some would suggest that 'you get the
quality you pay for'.

Gliders require ground crews for assistance and it is hard to get more
than 4 landings /hr.

We did it with the student, the instructor (me), and the tow pilot, using
unassisted takeoffs. Easy in the Blanik on 75'-100' wide pavement. The
first 3 launches were usually with a wing runner, though.

An aircraft needs no assistance and can easily make 12 or more landings
in an hour, and the cost per landing will be a small fraction of the cost
of gliders + tows.

If the discussion and reflection take place between the landings, I think
this would be effective. I know Derek Piggot thinks a motorglider is ideal
for initial training for the reasons mentioned.

I did not feel that I had really learned to land properly and consistently
until I had made several hundred solo landings in several types of aircraft
and in a wide variety of wind and weather. Both the mistakes and the
improvements are now smaller but I am still learning and every landing is
self critiqued.

Most students could do a decent landing in our Blanik after 15 flights,
starting with deciding when to break off the airwork and return to the
airport, entering the pattern, and finally, the actual "landing". I say
"landing" because I think the landing starts with the decision to land,
not the flare.

Your "landing" is what most folks would call the pattern or circuit,
depending on your country of reference.

I was advised against making touch and goes as they rob the student of
needed practice in the rollout which is the most important part of a
tailwheel landing. I was advised to do stop and goes, and while my stops
were seldom complete they did give me time to reconfigure the aircraft
properly for takeoff. I often notice that pilots doing T&Gs land too fast
and are unable to hold the nosewheel off in a proper (improperly named, full
stall) mains first landing.

They each have their place. I like touch and goes, if the runway length
is sufficient (don't ask :-) ), because it teaches a student to perform
multiple tasks in a short amount of time - plan and perform the landing,
maintain directional control, add power (torque, and other forces
change), maintain directional control, clean up the flaps, maintain
directional control, re-trim the aircraft, maintain directional control,
..... These are useful skills, IMHO. As for T&G pilots landing too fast
or in an improper attitude, that's the instructors fault, I think.

Tony V.

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JaMMg.924$FS.290@trnddc04...
Private wrote:

It is said by many that the route to good landings is practice, practice,
practice. The key is not to keep practicing your mistakes. Learning to land
in gliders is difficult because it is hard (and expensive) to do enough of
them.

I didn't find this to be true when I was an active CFIG;

I agree. Learning how to do a safe takeoff and tow are harder for most
glider students to grasp than the landing itself. With few exceptions, by the
time I felt good enough to solo a student safe landings had ceased to be a
serious issue several flights back; with the final issues involving the
takeoff/tow, consistency, or general judgment .

Vaughn

Cats wrote:
intermittent landing grief

OK guys, maybe I wasn't clear. It's not a question of not being able
to do it at all, it's a question of slipping into back into getting
fixated on the reference point and rounding out too late and hitting
the ground hard enough to bounce and make the guy in the back cringe.

After the problem came back, my own diagnosis was failure to look along
the field once I start the roundout - that after a number of good
landings, I was maybe getting cocky about it and forgetting what I was
doing that worked.

Tried it out today - carefully reminded myself of the need to look
along the field, and produced a good landing every time with & without
the man in the back seat, including my first flight in a single-seater.
My own solution at present is to at least mentally add it on to the
end of 'eventualities' - 'and when I reach the round-out look along the
field'.

Try the exercise where you stand alongside (or on) the runway, and bend
at the knees while you look down the runway several times. Do it again
from time to time, especially before a flight. Get used to seeing the
perspective change. Then, when you are landing, you will know to expect
this, and it will help you remember to look up, rather than fixating on
the spot.

Cats wrote:
Cats wrote:
intermittent landing grief

OK guys, maybe I wasn't clear. It's not a question of not being able
to do it at all, it's a question of slipping into back into getting
fixated on the reference point and rounding out too late and hitting
the ground hard enough to bounce and make the guy in the back cringe.

After the problem came back, my own diagnosis was failure to look along
the field once I start the roundout - that after a number of good
landings, I was maybe getting cocky about it and forgetting what I was
doing that worked.

Tried it out today - carefully reminded myself of the need to look
along the field, and produced a good landing every time with & without
the man in the back seat, including my first flight in a single-seater.
My own solution at present is to at least mentally add it on to the
end of 'eventualities' - 'and when I reach the round-out look along the
field'.

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
. ..

...
They each have their place. I like touch and goes, if the runway length is
sufficient (don't ask :-) ), because it teaches a student to perform
...

I've been known to do 3 or 4 "touch and go's" before the final full stop
landing. And all on the same approch. :-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

Derek Piggott did exactly the same thing as Tom Knauff, especially when
training instructors.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sounds like you have identified the most likely cause. I tell students
to watch the spot on approach, then when it is in "point blank range"
there is no need to look at it any more, and it's time to look at the
other end of the runway.

Tom Knauff has students stand near the runway and bend at the knees to
simulate the last part of the landing hold-off. You look down the
runway and note the perspective changes that are the cues you need to
maintain a slow descent. For a comparison you can also look at the
ground near your feet to see how ineffective this is.

Get yourself an instructor.
Don't think that you can learn how to fly by reading posts on a newsgroup.

"Cats" wrote in message
ps.com...
I am one of those people with ongoing intermittent landing problems. I
have good patches - managed to get solo recently - and then bad
patches. The bad patches probably co-incide with forgetting to look up
as I start the round-out, so there is no hold-off and a rather heavy
landing, sometimes with a bounce.

I've got my own ideas on how to address this, was curious if anyone
else here has had the same problem and if so, how did you deal with it?
Unfortunately I reckon I developed the bad habit fairly early in my
flying, as it was well-established by the time someone pointed out what
was going on. Since I seem to be reasonably good at doing what I'm
told to do, via a route from ears to hands & feet that misses my brain,
I suspect I've flattered to deceive in the front seat.