Collision Avoidance Systems for gliders

Tim, this is simply not correct. It is the other way around. Our club
recently invited a controller from norcal approach to talk on this
very subject, and he confirmed they vector traffic arround any mode c
target they have, regardless if they have radio contact. The radio
communication only makes their job easier, but they very much prefer
you would fly with transponder than without one even if you don't talk
to them. Of course, if you enter class B,C, or D airspace you must be
in radio contact.

Ramy


On Mar 7, 11:52 am, "Tim Mara" wrote:
"If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
than being there without a transponder.

Michael R wrote:
Sporty's is a gliding related business:

http://www.flyeca.com/eca/page.aspx?id=22

By having a motor glider (operated by another company) parked in front
of their hangar?

Tony V.

A question for someone with transponder and PCAS experience:
How do the collision avoidance systems respond to transponder
equipped gliders in a gaggle, or transponder equipped tow planes?

I only have experience with 2 installations in gliders:
1. Transponder equipped, no collision avoidance system.
2. FLARM.

Searching for the next installation, hoping it can consume little
power, integrate with power traffic, and behave as well as the FLARM.
Jim

JS,

I've been flying with transponder and TPAS for over 5 years, some of that
buddy flying with transponder equipped gliders.

When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
during this period.

bumper

"JS" wrote in message
ups.com...
A question for someone with transponder and PCAS experience:
How do the collision avoidance systems respond to transponder
equipped gliders in a gaggle, or transponder equipped tow planes?

I only have experience with 2 installations in gliders:
1. Transponder equipped, no collision avoidance system.
2. FLARM.

Searching for the next installation, hoping it can consume little
power, integrate with power traffic, and behave as well as the FLARM.
Jim

On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
"Brian Bange" wrote in message

...

Huh???
If you don't think we should be in the airspace with a transponder, then
why would it matter if it was closed to us? I don't get your logic.

"If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
than being there without a transponder.
If we continue to have near iss situations or, worse, hits we won't have to
make the choice, it will be made for us.
We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
am near heavy traffic areas"



What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
brings the airliner down?

just as I mentioned...we won't have the ability to choose if or where we
want to fly...
The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.

I just visited ATC last week and looked at what they see of
non-transponder
equipped aircraft. It is a little + mark. They ignore them. They can't
tell
if it is ground clutter, birds, a mylar balloon etc., so it just plain
does
not exist to them.

and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
have communication with the traffic...
So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..
The simple ingredience are there to work against us....all of us.



A transponder equipped glider squawking 1200 will have approaching
aircraft
advised of it's presence, even with the glider pilot on 123.3. TCAS in any
fast mover will also alert them of the gliders presence. So with a
transponder, you get 2 chances to be seen. You still have the 182's to
worry about, and that is where the Zaon is a handy device, but it's
foolish
to think that you'll be able to maneuver out of the way of a fast mover
with a 20 second alert from the Zaon. It will take you that long to make
the turn and locate them. You'll have just enough time to see your
immanent
demise.

Or....have no warning except the collision...? Your chance of running into
or being run into by fast movers is increased by simpy being in the wrong
place
tim





Brian Bange

having said that, the FAA is acutely aware that there is a growing number
or transponder equipped gliders, many of which can routinely be found
running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as
long as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and
this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
open.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Tim,
I respectfully disagree with some of what you said. I have purchased
both a transponder (and all the costly goodies to complete the
installation) and a pcas from you in the effort to try to be safe. I
fly out of Cedar Valley, Utah which is 20 miles south of SLC
international, under Class B airspace and their approach and departure
is right over us at between 6,000 and 12,000 agl. On most days in the
summer we can easily get to 13,000 agl over the airport so we are
right in the line of fire which is not too comfortable.

If I follow your advice Tim I should not fly out of this airport at
all? If I can't fly there I don't have any other reasonable options
because the other airports that have glider operations in SLC are also
in the same situation. To follow what I think you are saying we all
should stop flying near Salt Lake City and only fly at other glider
ports not near this busy airspace? There is none within a 3 hour
drive. I am not trying to put words in your mouth Tim but what you
seem to be suggesting is that for the good of the sport and rights of
other soaring pilots to have unrestricted airspace the 100+ soaring
pilots in Utah should stop flying because we are near a major Class B
area and are too visible to the Feds? I am sure that must not be what
you are saying. So what are you saying is the solution for people in
our situation?

To see what a shame it would be if we all decided it was too dangerous
to fly around Salt Lake City check out some pics and videos of some
flights around there by going to http://phoebus.vassel.com

So, if we don't stop soaring in Utah I think the safest next best
thing is to fly with a parachute AND a transponder AND a pcas AND talk
to ATC AND keep our heads out the windows AND try to get away from the
busy areas as soon as possible on our flights. If anyone can suggest
how to do this even safer please speak up!!!

Tim, I understand the point you are trying to make but maybe the
ramifications were not fully considered. I need to buy some more
stuff from you so talk to you soon.

Bruno

On Mar 8, 9:06 am, "bumper" wrote:

When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
during this period.

bumper

Allo, John.
Interesting.
This implies that the transponder-based collision avoidance system
in a transponder equipped aircraft is of little use when close to
another transponder equipped aircraft. A bit counterproductive,
perhaps?
What relative distance does this blanking occur below?
Jim

I guess you think that Chevrolet and GM are different companies too, huh?



"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...
Michael R wrote:
Sporty's is a gliding related business:

http://www.flyeca.com/eca/page.aspx?id=22

By having a motor glider (operated by another company) parked in front of
their hangar?

Tony V.

JS wrote:
On Mar 8, 9:06 am, "bumper" wrote:

When close to other transponder equipped gliders, the TPAS essentially goes
deaf. If both gliders are being interrogated by ATC or TCAS at very nearly
the same time, the nearby glider's transponder reply will occur while your
transponder replying as well. Your transponder blanks the TPAS receiver
during this period.

bumper

Allo, John.
Interesting.
This implies that the transponder-based collision avoidance system
in a transponder equipped aircraft is of little use when close to
another transponder equipped aircraft. A bit counterproductive,
perhaps?
What relative distance does this blanking occur below?

My MRX manual doesn't directly answer this question, but my reading is
you have range down to at least 0.4 nm, which is 2400'. It's been giving
you advisories and alerts from 5 nm, so you should have spotted the
threat by the time it's that close.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
"If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
than being there without a transponder.

Tim, this theme is repeated in both of your posts.I think it is based
on some faulty logic.Some of us have to live and fly in these heavy
traffic areas.You dont have to be in contact with anyone for TCAS to
work.Besides, what is to stop a safety conscious pilot from looking up
the STAR,s and DP,s for a peticular terminal area and just avoiding
those routes ?

We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
am near heavy traffic areas"

Where did you read this?I have read a few reports on this accident in
both soaring and some of the commercial aviation mags, and I never
read of any interviews with the sailplane pilot and this comment.Could
you pass along the reference?


What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
brings the airliner down?

The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.


and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
have communication with the traffic...

Tim, they dont need to have communication with both targets to do
this.Besides, the TCAS equiped airliners dont need ATC to advise them
of traffic.

So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..

Why are you predicting failure Tim.I want to reiterate my earlier
comment that there is nothing stopping sailplane pilots from looking
up the arival and departure routes and staying clear.When I was doing
alot of teaching with the CAP we had this well marked out on class B
charts that were available to everyone at the gliderport.It would be
nice to go soaring in the middle of nowhere, but hardly practicle.
I also think you are way over estimating our impact on the
airlines.Contrary to your post and several general aviation magazine
editorials, in 19 years of airline flying I have never heard even a
comment from airline managment about general aviation traffic
impacting our operations.
K Urban

On Mar 8, 11:03 pm, "KM" wrote:
On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:

"If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
than being there without a transponder.

Tim, this theme is repeated in both of your posts.I think it is based
on some faulty logic.Some of us have to live and fly in these heavy
traffic areas.You dont have to be in contact with anyone for TCAS to
work.Besides, what is to stop a safety conscious pilot from looking up
the STAR,s and DP,s for a peticular terminal area and just avoiding
those routes ?

We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
am near heavy traffic areas"

Where did you read this?I have read a few reports on this accident in
both soaring and some of the commercial aviation mags, and I never
read of any interviews with the sailplane pilot and this comment.Could
you pass along the reference?



What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
brings the airliner down?

The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.

and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
have communication with the traffic...

Tim, they dont need to have communication with both targets to do
this.Besides, the TCAS equiped airliners dont need ATC to advise them
of traffic.

So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..

Why are you predicting failure Tim.I want to reiterate my earlier
comment that there is nothing stopping sailplane pilots from looking
up the arival and departure routes and staying clear.When I was doing
alot of teaching with the CAP we had this well marked out on class B
charts that were available to everyone at the gliderport.It would be
nice to go soaring in the middle of nowhere, but hardly practicle.
I also think you are way over estimating our impact on the
airlines.Contrary to your post and several general aviation magazine
editorials, in 19 years of airline flying I have never heard even a
comment from airline managment about general aviation traffic
impacting our operations.
K Urban

according to the NTSB report, the interview with the pilot established
that the transponder was not on:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...06FA277B&rpt=p