Las Vegas NV Cortez 1 VFR Arrival/Class B Airspace

"BT" wrote in news:i%Zaj.48759$KU2.1753
@newsfe11.phx:

You may not want to pay the fee at KLAS.

You may also not want to deal with the crappy tower controllers (been
there, done that).

--

"BT" wrote in message
...

A Clearance from ATC is required to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival should
include the words.. "cleared to enter Class B", if not.. ask
Most likely the phraseology will be, "N123VG, Cleared to enter Class B via
the Cortez 1 arrival to North Las Vegas Airport. Maintain VFR."


A clearance to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival need not include the words, "cleared
to enter Class B". The clearance requirement for Class B entry is satisfied
by the clearance for the arrival.

On Dec 22, 7:06*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
A clearance to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival need not include the words, "cleared
to enter Class B". *The clearance requirement for Class B entry is satisfied
by the clearance for the arrival.

WRONG

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 7:06 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

A clearance to fly the Cortez 1 Arrival need not include the words,
"cleared
to enter Class B". The clearance requirement for Class B entry is
satisfied
by the clearance for the arrival.


WRONG


Please explain why you believe I'm wrong.

On Dec 22, 9:56*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Please explain why you believe I'm wrong.

Because you have not provided a reference that ***clearly states*** an
arrival procedure is a clearance into Bravo.

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BeechSundowner

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 9:56 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Please explain why you believe I'm wrong.


Because you have not provided a reference that ***clearly states*** an
arrival procedure is a clearance into Bravo.


Here ya go:


Title 14: Aeronautics and Space

PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES

§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

On Dec 22, 10:13*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

Not enough as I saw this.

Clearance on an arrival procedure does not clear you in Bravo. An
arrival procedure can be outside bravo. That area OUTSIDE bravo is
what you are cleared for, NOT cleared to enter Bravo.

What you say is like saying cleared for an approach is a clearance for
a landing. You know that's not right just as being cleared Cortez1
arrival is not a clearance into Las Vegas Bravo..

SHOW ME WHERE a clearance on an arrival procedure is a clearance to
enter Bravo and clearly states it. Better yet, show me a reference
that shows "exceptions to not having to hear the words cleared into
Bravo". I bet you can't.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...3/aim0302.html

3.2.3 covers my position. Specifically An ATC clearance is required
for all aircraft to operate in the area. Class B airspace is not the
same area as an arrival procedure area, and you know this.

You must hear cleared into Bravo. A clearance on an arrival procedure
does not meet this requirement and you know this.

Until you provide a reference otherwise that clearly states a
clearance on an arrival procedure is clearance into Bravo (and that is
what you are saying) YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG.

You must hear the words cleared into Bravo. I dont' know of any
exceptions nor have I came across any references that gives
exceptions. Provide references that gives exceptions.

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BeechSundowner

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:40:07 -0800 (PST), "
wrote in
:

On Dec 22, 10:13*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

[...]

SHOW ME WHERE a clearance on an arrival procedure is a clearance to
enter Bravo and clearly states it. Better yet, show me a reference
that shows "exceptions to not having to hear the words cleared into
Bravo". I bet you can't.

He already has. If you look at the sentence Mr. McNicoll quoted out
of FAAO 7110.65, you'll notice that it doesn't mention "cleared into
Bravo."

Please provide a citation from FAAO 7110.65 (the Aeronautical
Information Manual is not regulatory; it is merely a summary of
regulations) that contains "cleared into Bravo." Here's a link for
you:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff.../ATC/INDEX.HTM

FAA Order 7110.65R

Air Traffic Control

February 16, 2006

Includes Change 1 effective August 3, 2006,
Change 2 effective March 15, 2007,
and Change 3 effective August 30, 2007

wrote in message
...
On Dec 22, 10:13 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having
jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.


Not enough as I saw this.

Clearance on an arrival procedure does not clear you in Bravo. An
arrival procedure can be outside bravo. That area OUTSIDE bravo is
what you are cleared for, NOT cleared to enter Bravo.


Where did you see that?



What you say is like saying cleared for an approach is a clearance for
a landing. You know that's not right just as being cleared Cortez1
arrival is not a clearance into Las Vegas Bravo.


No, what I say is like saying an ATC clearance for a procedure that enters
Class B airspace issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that
area satisfies the clearance requirement for Class B airspace entry.



SHOW ME WHERE a clearance on an arrival procedure is a clearance to
enter Bravo and clearly states it. Better yet, show me a reference
that shows "exceptions to not having to hear the words cleared into
Bravo". I bet you can't.


SHOW ME WHERE hearing the words "cleared into Bravo" is required for entry
to Class B airspace. I bet you can't.


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...3/aim0302.html


3.2.3 covers my position. Specifically An ATC clearance is required
for all aircraft to operate in the area. Class B airspace is not the
same area as an arrival procedure area, and you know this.


I see nothing in AIM para 3-2-3 that covers your position. Please specify
what you are referring to.



You must hear cleared into Bravo. A clearance on an arrival procedure
does not meet this requirement and you know this.


Where is it written that one must hear "cleared into Bravo"?



Until you provide a reference otherwise that clearly states a
clearance on an arrival procedure is clearance into Bravo (and that is
what you are saying) YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG.


Why am I wrong? Is it because a clearance for the Cortez 1 arrival issued
by Las Vegas approach is not an ATC clearance? Is it because Las Vegas
approach is not the ATC facility having jurisdiction for the Las Vegas Class
B airspace?



You must hear the words cleared into Bravo.


Where is that requirement found?



I dont' know of any
exceptions nor have I came across any references that gives
exceptions. Provide references that gives exceptions.


Let's make a deal, you show me the requirement, then I'll show you the
exceptions to it.

On Dec 22, 11:35*am, Larry Dighera wrote:

He already has. *If you look at the sentence Mr. McNicoll quoted out
of FAAO 7110.65, you'll notice that it doesn't mention "cleared into
Bravo." *

And since when is an arrival procedure the same **area** as Bravo?

So, what you are saying if a person is on flight following landing
KLAS (after all Ron was VFR), that it's ok to hear contact tower
WITHOUT hearing the magic words "cleared to enter bravo"? I don't
think so. What's the difference between that and arrival procedure.
None.

Arrival procedure is not the same as Bravo airspace. An arrival
procedure does not trump airspace rules, and Bravo requires a
clearance to enter it, implied or not via the approval would not show
up on the tapes those magic words "cleared into Bravo".

Please provide a citation from FAAO 7110.65 (the Aeronautical
Information Manual is not regulatory; it is merely a summary of
regulations) that contains "cleared into Bravo." *Here's a link for
you:

While not regulatory as you state above, the phraseology sure supports
my position.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

and as appropriate,

VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

Note the Via part and that's what BT said.

Let me go this route, I will not bet my ticket on Steven's advise.

Unless I am IFR, I will expect to hear cleared into Bravo just as the
phraseology suggest above, and since an arrival procedure is not the
same as Bravo airspace, I don't think Steven is right. Rules clearly
state, you must be cleared into the airspace (area).

Allen