Transponder Praise

On Jul 5, 10:21*am, "BT" wrote:
Transponders are a good thing.. when the other guy has TCAS or TIS
capability.
I would venture a guess it's 50-50 he never saw you and simply reacted to
the TA commands.

TCAS never commands an aircraft to turn to avoid a conflict. TCAS is
only capable of providing vertical commands. If the aircraft turned
it's reasonable to assume the pilots had visual contact.

Andy

We may not have to wait 10-20 years. The new MITRE low cost ADS-B
transceiver (transmitting your location, while also receiving traffic &
weather data) should be in testing this fall. The last I heard, they
already have a couple of companies lined up to license the design for
commercial production.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Bj9ck.310$rb1.279@trndny08...
JS wrote:

Just installed and certified a transponder in the new flying
machine, too. But this is old technology. When we all have
transponders it will drive ATC crazy with gaggles of proximity alarms
going off.

That can be handled with an assigned code like the 0440 used in Reno for
gliders. The software can be instructed to ignore conflicts between 0440
codes, which, I believe, is what is done in Reno. There may be other
methods they can already use, especially if the glider density is lower
than Reno.

Be better if every aircraft had FLARM.

We will, in 10 to 20 years, but we'll likely call it ADSB. FLARM, as
presently implemented, probably wouldn't appeal to 250+ knot airliners,
because it's range is too small. I think it's better to work for a low
cost, low power, ADSB with modest features like the Mitre unit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

True.. the most basic levels of TCAS do not give commands..
those aboard most airliners do
BT


"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Jul 5, 10:21 am, "BT" wrote:
Transponders are a good thing.. when the other guy has TCAS or TIS
capability.
I would venture a guess it's 50-50 he never saw you and simply reacted to
the TA commands.

TCAS never commands an aircraft to turn to avoid a conflict. TCAS is
only capable of providing vertical commands. If the aircraft turned
it's reasonable to assume the pilots had visual contact.

Andy

the system will not give alarms for multiple 1200 codes in the same vicinity
that might conflict with each other
it will give an alarm for a discreet code conflicting with another discrete
code.. (0440 is not considered discrete)
It may or may not give alarms if a discrete code will conflict with a 1200
code

The jumpers at Jean have negotiated 1201, 1202, 1203 etc so TRACON instantly
knows it's the jump plane.

BT

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Bj9ck.310$rb1.279@trndny08...
JS wrote:

Just installed and certified a transponder in the new flying
machine, too. But this is old technology. When we all have
transponders it will drive ATC crazy with gaggles of proximity alarms
going off.

That can be handled with an assigned code like the 0440 used in Reno for
gliders. The software can be instructed to ignore conflicts between 0440
codes, which, I believe, is what is done in Reno. There may be other
methods they can already use, especially if the glider density is lower
than Reno.

Be better if every aircraft had FLARM.

We will, in 10 to 20 years, but we'll likely call it ADSB. FLARM, as
presently implemented, probably wouldn't appeal to 250+ knot airliners,
because it's range is too small. I think it's better to work for a low
cost, low power, ADSB with modest features like the Mitre unit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Jul 6, 7:57*pm, "BT" wrote:
True.. the most basic levels of TCAS do not give commands..
those aboard most airliners do
BT

"Andy" wrote in message

...
On Jul 5, 10:21 am, "BT" wrote:

Transponders are a good thing.. when the other guy has TCAS or TIS
capability.
I would venture a guess it's 50-50 he never saw you and simply reacted to
the TA commands.

TCAS never commands an aircraft to turn to avoid a conflict. TCAS is
only capable of providing vertical commands. *If the aircraft turned
it's reasonable to assume the pilots had visual contact.

Andy

No! Andy was exactly correct, even TCAS-II resolution advisories (RA)
are vertical only. You need a time machine and TCAS IV for lateral
advisories. And strictly going back to earlier comments the traffic
advisory (TA) does not issue a resolution, that is the RA.

Still TCAS, if they were so equipped, could have indicated to the
pilot(s) the presence of the transponder equipped gliders which was
the initial point. But who knows, maybe ATC issues a traffic advisory?

Darryl

What is the group’s suggestion on the best procedure to follow when
flying a transponder equipped sailplane outside of an area where
specific squawk codes have been assigned, ie, where you get lumped in
with other VFR traffic? It’d be nice if gliders and balloons had a
discrete squawk code everywhere in the US, so ATC would know
immediately that we were a different kind of traffic, but since that’s
not going to happen soon (if ever) what strategies could glider pilots
use to stay as safe as possible?

Currently I’m squawking 1200, communicating on 123.3 with other XC
gliders, monitoring my Zaon MRX PCAS for transponder equipped traffic,
and of course constantly visually scanning for traffic. As Darryl
said, if my PCAS alerts me to closing traffic and I don’t see it, I
start turning while increasing my visual scan. This makes me more
visible to them, and allows me to look at what was my 6 o’clock. I
also tend to get more vigilant when I’m nearing a VOR as well as when
I'm flying at a multiple of 1000 feet, as I figure other traffic tends
to fly at those locations and altitudes.

One hardware change I plan on making soon is to move my PCAS antenna
from the instrument panel area to a location back in the tail boom. My
PCAS antenna is now getting shadowed from multiple directions by
various instruments from the rear and below, by the compass from the
front and above, by the canopy and instrument panel lifting mechanism
from the front, and by the rudder pedal assembly from the front and
below. In the tail boom the only real shadowing will come from the
landing gear from the front. Shadowing of the PCAS antenna in its
present location might explain why the business jet closed with my
friend and I so quickly.

-John

On Jul 6, 3:36 am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
The distance measurements with PCAS are approximate and only based on
radiated power from the other aircraft's transponder and can be fooled
as the aircraft change atitudes/altirudes relateive to each other.

With two gliders flying near each other and both thermalling (so that
you are most visible to other traffic) I'd be trying to stay with the
other glider (traffic might see and try to avoid one glider and hit
the other), I'd be focused on scanning for the traffic and not be
shoving the nose over and pulling spoilers unless I could see the
traffic and thought that was a good thign to do. If traffic is
getting close on PCAS and I can't see it I will bank or turn the
glider to have a good look around.

Darryl

On Jul 5, 12:34*pm, jcarlyle wrote:
On July 2 (a day with blue skies, a few scattered CUs and typical east
coast haze) a friend and I were thermalling our ASW-20 and ASW-19
sailplanes at 6,000 feet 3 miles SE of Blairstown, NJ (a clearly
marked glider port some 40 miles from Newark Airport and Teterboro
Airport). My Zaon MRX alerted us to traffic at our altitude 5 miles
away, which then rapidly closed on us. Despite our best efforts over
the next 30 seconds, neither my friend nor I saw anything approaching.
Then suddenly we saw a business jet in a 45-50 degree bank less than a
mile away. Apparently my transponder caused a TA on his TCAS, he
looked outside and saw our wings flashing, and he turned away from the
impending collision.

I realize not everyone flies in a high traffic area like that around
NY and PHL. But especially for my soaring friends who fly the
Governor’s Cup course, I strongly recommend you put a transponder in
your ship. They cost less than a glide computer, and while they won’t
tell you where you are, a transponder might just get you home someday…

-John

What I particularly like about John's post is that it's a "total
package" approach. No one item is enough, and even all of them
combined aren't foolproof.

As an aside, any of us who fly on the perimeter of busy class B
airspace need to take the time to understand the standard terminal
arrival routes. Spend some time learning where the "big boys" are
and make a conscious decision not to go there. For instance, there
are 3 or 4 places in our local contest area (Governor's Cup) where I
would never want to be even if the best thermal in the world is
sitting right there.

As a second aside, I came as close as I've ever come to being skewered
by a Dash-8 a couple of weeks ago at 5,000 feet in a spot that's not
on anyone's "standard" anything. Who knows if the guy was being
vectored for spacing or whatever, but it was REAL close. "Get the
transponder installed" has been on the to-do list for the winter. I
think it's going to make it to the "must do" list for the next month
or so.

P3

One option would be to take along a handheld and use it request flight
following from your local center.

Mike Schuman

"jcarlyle" wrote in message
...
What is the group’s suggestion on the best procedure to follow when
flying a transponder equipped sailplane outside of an area where
specific squawk codes have been assigned, ie, where you get lumped in
with other VFR traffic? It’d be nice if gliders and balloons had a
discrete squawk code everywhere in the US, so ATC would know
immediately that we were a different kind of traffic, but since that’s
not going to happen soon (if ever) what strategies could glider pilots
use to stay as safe as possible?

Currently I’m squawking 1200, communicating on 123.3 with other XC
gliders, monitoring my Zaon MRX PCAS for transponder equipped traffic,
and of course constantly visually scanning for traffic. As Darryl
said, if my PCAS alerts me to closing traffic and I don’t see it, I
start turning while increasing my visual scan. This makes me more
visible to them, and allows me to look at what was my 6 o’clock. I
also tend to get more vigilant when I’m nearing a VOR as well as when
I'm flying at a multiple of 1000 feet, as I figure other traffic tends
to fly at those locations and altitudes.

One hardware change I plan on making soon is to move my PCAS antenna
from the instrument panel area to a location back in the tail boom. My
PCAS antenna is now getting shadowed from multiple directions by
various instruments from the rear and below, by the compass from the
front and above, by the canopy and instrument panel lifting mechanism
from the front, and by the rudder pedal assembly from the front and
below. In the tail boom the only real shadowing will come from the
landing gear from the front. Shadowing of the PCAS antenna in its
present location might explain why the business jet closed with my
friend and I so quickly.

-John

On Jul 6, 3:36 am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
The distance measurements with PCAS are approximate and only based on
radiated power from the other aircraft's transponder and can be fooled
as the aircraft change atitudes/altirudes relateive to each other.

With two gliders flying near each other and both thermalling (so that
you are most visible to other traffic) I'd be trying to stay with the
other glider (traffic might see and try to avoid one glider and hit
the other), I'd be focused on scanning for the traffic and not be
shoving the nose over and pulling spoilers unless I could see the
traffic and thought that was a good thign to do. If traffic is
getting close on PCAS and I can't see it I will bank or turn the
glider to have a good look around.

Darryl


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

jcarlyle wrote:

One hardware change I plan on making soon is to move my PCAS antenna
from the instrument panel area to a location back in the tail boom. My
PCAS antenna is now getting shadowed from multiple directions by
various instruments from the rear and below, by the compass from the
front and above, by the canopy and instrument panel lifting mechanism
from the front, and by the rudder pedal assembly from the front and
below. In the tail boom the only real shadowing will come from the
landing gear from the front. Shadowing of the PCAS antenna in its
present location might explain why the business jet closed with my
friend and I so quickly.

Shadowing is certainly a possibility. I've also wondered if the amount
of radar interrogations can cause the same thing; e.g., where I fly in
SE Washington state, my transponder is triggered only 5-10 times a minute.

Rather than just relocating the antenna, you can get Zaon's dual antenna
option. That puts antennas top and bottom on the aircraft, essentially
eliminating all shadowing. It might be easier than moving one antenna to
the tail, but it's pricey at $280 for the option, plus two blade antennas.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Jul 7, 1:29*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Jul 5, 12:34*pm, jcarlyle wrote:





On July 2 (a day with blue skies, a few scattered CUs and typical east
coast haze) a friend and I were thermalling our ASW-20 and ASW-19
sailplanes at 6,000 feet 3 miles SE of Blairstown, NJ (a clearly
marked glider port some 40 miles from Newark Airport and Teterboro
Airport). My Zaon MRX alerted us to traffic at our altitude 5 miles
away, which then rapidly closed on us. Despite our best efforts over
the next 30 seconds, neither my friend nor I saw anything approaching.
Then suddenly we saw a business jet in a 45-50 degree bank less than a
mile away. Apparently my transponder caused a TA on his TCAS, he
looked outside and saw our wings flashing, and he turned away from the
impending collision.

I realize not everyone flies in a high traffic area like that around
NY and PHL. But especially for my soaring friends who fly the
Governor’s Cup course, I strongly recommend you put a transponder in
your ship. They cost less than a glide computer, and while they won’t
tell you where you are, a transponder might just get you home someday…

-John

What I particularly like about John's post is that it's a "total
package" approach. * *No one item is enough, and even all of them
combined aren't foolproof.

As an aside, any of us who fly on the perimeter of busy class B
airspace need to take the time to understand the standard terminal
arrival routes. * *Spend some time learning where the "big boys" are
and make a conscious decision not to go there. * For instance, there
are 3 or 4 places in our local contest area (Governor's Cup) where I
would never want to be even if the best thermal in the world is
sitting right there.

As a second aside, I came as close as I've ever come to being skewered
by a Dash-8 a couple of weeks ago at 5,000 feet in a spot that's not
on anyone's "standard" anything. * Who knows if the guy was being
vectored for spacing or whatever, but it was REAL close. * *"Get the
transponder installed" has been on the to-do list for the winter. * I
think it's going to make it to the "must do" list for the next month
or so.

P3- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What led to our transponder installation was my nearly getting run
over from the 6 by a Regional Jet near UKT about a year ago,
in an area where I've never seen commercial activity. It may an
exageration, but I think the separation was less than 1000'. Hard to
see and avoid that.

Needless to say, that I was gratified to watch a Dash 8 manueuver to
avoid me
in a thermal near Limerick a couple of weeks ago. I think the Zaon is
the next addition, or is it the ELT upgrade............

Interestingly, these devices have a much higher WAF (wife acceptance
factor) than normal glider related stuff. In fact, the transponder
was mandated.

Chip F.