Another expensive annual this year

RST Engineering wrote:
Or a blonde in the 34C to 36D range...

Jim

Jim,
The Cardinal W&B shows that we can only carry oursevles and our
diving gear. There is no room for a blonde in 34C to 36D range.
Besides, I have no frigging idea what to do with the blonde of that
type ;-)

Hai

No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
the annual.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon A." wrote in message
...
Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
wrote:

Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
into our pockets again.

Here is the list

1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
and may even out the initial cost in the long run.

2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
owner-assisted manual).

3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
this ourselves again).

4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.

5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
for the nose bowl job.

6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.

The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.

http://www.ifrwest.com/
http://www.dsflight.com/about.html

No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
but those trips ain't cheap either.
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)

Hai Longworth
N30703

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:16 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
the annual.

Mike
MU-2

Really? $2500 for a vacuum pump? $1K for glass? $1K for tips, $1K
for nose paint? $500 to weigh the plane? Where do you shop? Or are
you on the Boat & MB payment end?

"Jon A." wrote in message
.. .
Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
wrote:

Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
into our pockets again.

Here is the list

1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
and may even out the initial cost in the long run.

2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
owner-assisted manual).

3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
this ourselves again).

4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.

5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
for the nose bowl job.

6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.

The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.

http://www.ifrwest.com/
http://www.dsflight.com/about.html

No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
but those trips ain't cheap either.
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)

Hai Longworth
N30703

Jon,
We live in NY (just north of the city). Everything around here seems
to be more expensive than in many other parts of the country. I do try
to shop around online but some of the items are pretty much
single-source such as the wet pump for Cardinal. Only Airwolf has it
for close to $2K. The Air/Oil separator is $500. The photo window
from LPAero plastics is $500/window. There are only two sources for
fiberglass wingtips (Stene and Globe fiberglass) and none could be
found for the nose bowl. If we have a more common plane such as C172,
there would be more sources for parts but the Cardinal is our choice.
All the paint shops within 200nm pretty much quote the same price
range for painting. I may check out the Arkansas paint shop then
weighing the pros and cons of saving some money vs. the logistic of
getting the plane down there, back etc. esp if there are problems.
Regarding annual cost, the AP rates around here are pretty much the
same range ~ $70/hr. The current AP is one of the very few who would
allow owner-assisted annual and his cost seems to be more reasonable.

How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is $1850
with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings and
hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for the
parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff done.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon A." wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:16 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
the annual.

Mike
MU-2

Really? $2500 for a vacuum pump? $1K for glass? $1K for tips, $1K
for nose paint? $500 to weigh the plane? Where do you shop? Or are
you on the Boat & MB payment end?

"Jon A." wrote in message
. ..
Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
wrote:

Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
into our pockets again.

Here is the list

1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
and may even out the initial cost in the long run.

2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
owner-assisted manual).

3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
this ourselves again).

4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.

5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
for the nose bowl job.

6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.

The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.

http://www.ifrwest.com/
http://www.dsflight.com/about.html

No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
but those trips ain't cheap either.
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)

Hai Longworth
N30703

Maybe you need to look a little closer at the options. Okay, I missed
the stab tips part, but if you can't get these for less than 1K,
you're a sissy!

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:21:38 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is $1850
with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings and
hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for the
parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff done.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon A." wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:16 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
the annual.

Mike
MU-2

Really? $2500 for a vacuum pump? $1K for glass? $1K for tips, $1K
for nose paint? $500 to weigh the plane? Where do you shop? Or are
you on the Boat & MB payment end?

"Jon A." wrote in message
...
Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
wrote:

Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
into our pockets again.

Here is the list

1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
and may even out the initial cost in the long run.

2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
owner-assisted manual).

3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
this ourselves again).

4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.

5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
for the nose bowl job.

6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.

The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.

http://www.ifrwest.com/
http://www.dsflight.com/about.html

No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
but those trips ain't cheap either.
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)

Hai Longworth
N30703

Mike Rapoport wrote:
How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is
$1850
with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings
and
hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for
the
parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff
done.

No, what's clear is that you have no real idea of how maintenance works
in the real world of light piston airplanes.

Who in the world would buy a new wet pump and separator from Aircraft
Spruce? Certainly nobody I know. Those things last essentially
forever, there were tons of them manufactured decades ago, and they're
everywhere. You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard. Any
mechanic worth his salt knows how to do this. The mechanic who just
orders new from Aircraft Spruce is going to cost you a lot of money.
Michael

"Jon A." wrote:

Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

How do you know? He hasn't said a word in there about how much the annual
inspection costs.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:12:00 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:



"Jon A." wrote:

Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

How do you know? He hasn't said a word in there about how much the annual
inspection costs.

Easy, I can read & understand. The numbers he quoted are absurd.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

Jon,
Our AP has been pretty reasonable. I believe his rate is something
like $400-$500 for the typical owner-assisted annual. We believe he
made a mistake in arranging for the plane-weighing guy for us without
checking the cost or telling us what it would have cost. We certainly
made him aware of our shocked reaction to the bill.

We do belong to the Cardinal Flyers club and had learned quite a bit
from the club. We redid the interior oursevles last year including
adding thermal/sound insulation (our AP let us use his hangar last
winter during the annual). He also let us assisted with all the
tasks. We have learned a great deal about airplane maintenance/repairs
in the last year from him.

Hai