Overspeed Recovery question

On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 3:59:16 PM UTC+13, Bill D wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 12:07:31 PM UTC+13, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 6:58:58 PM UTC-8, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range, and you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow before the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and slowly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

Thanks all for your input. The senario as stated in my quest has happened to me several times whilst flying Condor - Glider flight Simulation software. I've been deploying spoilers to slow down but that I would ask this group in case it happens in a real glider. Your inputs, as I suspected, are well thought out and are convincing. My thoughts to control highspeed flight (overspeed flight) will be pitch.

The flutter in condor is nasty, and happens at speeds well below where any real glider would probably experience flutter. The simulated glider also falls apart very very quickly!

Have a lot of experience at that?

Yes. Real gliders I've flown have never fluttered at indicated Vne at low altitude. Condor does every time.

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 6:07:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Thanks all for your input. The senario as stated in my quest has happened to me several times whilst flying Condor - Glider flight Simulation software. I've been deploying spoilers to slow down but that I would ask this group in case it happens in a real glider. Your inputs, as I suspected, are well thought out and are convincing. My thoughts to control highspeed flight (overspeed flight) will be pitch.

Illustrating nicely the perils of self directed training in Condor. You did well to ask for the benefit of real world experience.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 7:55:09 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 6:07:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Thanks all for your input. The senario as stated in my quest has happened to me several times whilst flying Condor - Glider flight Simulation software. I've been deploying spoilers to slow down but that I would ask this group in case it happens in a real glider. Your inputs, as I suspected, are well thought out and are convincing. My thoughts to control highspeed flight (overspeed flight) will be pitch.

Illustrating nicely the perils of self directed training in Condor. You did well to ask for the benefit of real world experience.

Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes, good to ask real world experience. While I've never been in the scenario as described (over VNE unintentionally) I have had dive brakes open at speed.
Coming back from a day of flying, I did a speed pass over the field (in a ASW-24) aiming to do a pull up and enter late downwind. At ~300' (in the pull up), I hit a gust that slammed the spoilers full open (speed was likely close to 180MPH) and aimed away from the field.
The glider felt like it hit a wall.
I went from, "Life is good, lets do a nice pattern" to "I'm low, losing speed quickly and am getting a wee bit busy".
The spoilers DID close and everything turned out well.
We did spend some time checking spoiler linkages & alignments before de-rigging.

As to flutter, I would hazard it's more of the control surface balance, hinge condition & linkage slop than the wing itself. The wing tends to be involved AFTER the control surface flutters.
Right on up there with old/cheap safety tape that peels up its leading edge and blanks a surface. Especially newer designs with small chord control surfaces.

Level the wings and pull. DO NOT OPEN spoilers! The spoilers will be sucked open and now you are creating more bending moments on the wing. Lowering gear usually requires switching hands on the stick, probably not a good idea. Also mindful actions can keep you from exceeding VNE. Other than non-approved aerobatics, and flight into IMC a common reason to get into a VNE exceed would be a spin that has turned into a "death spiral. Go get some training in a 2-32, those will easily go from spin to spiral.

Stay safe

Oh, a quick way to tell if a spin has turned into a spiral, when the rudder does not stop the spin.

On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 4:41:17 PM UTC+13, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Oh, a quick way to tell if a spin has turned into a spiral, when the rudder does not stop the spin.

Should have thought the rapidly increasing wind noise and G forces would rather give it away...

I would recommend going up with a competent instructor and trying it for yourself. First thing I noticed was rudder did not stop the spin. By the time you notice the increase in airspeed you will be going very fast. Nothing beats first hand experience!

On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 3:30:09 AM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 4:41:17 PM UTC+13, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Oh, a quick way to tell if a spin has turned into a spiral,
when the rudder does not stop the spin.

Should have thought the rapidly increasing wind noise and G forces
would rather give it away...

Some very experienced pilots have made the mistake of
interpreting a spiral dive as a spin. IIRC this was how
an Eta was lost during spin test (pilots bailed out OK).

So, its not necessarily so easy to distinguish,
especially in clean quiet fast gliders...
In the briefing prior I first flew an Antares I was
specifically warned on this...

Be careful out there,
Best Regards, Dave

On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 9:58:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range, and you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow before the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and slowly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

ask this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQI3AWpTWhM

Quoting from The Handbook of Glider Aerobatics by Peter Mallinson and Mike Woollard.

"Effect of Airbrakes
Contrary to popular belief, use of the airbrakes does cause a significant increase in the loads applied to the glider, requiring a moderation of the Flight Envelope in a similar way to the ailerons..The reasons are twofold:

(a)the airbrakes destroy lift over a fairly large inboard section of the wing causing the spanwise wing lift distribution to move outboard. This substantially increases wing bending moments.

(b)the airbrakes also generate drag loads on the wing, a proportion of which become an additional load in the pitch plane direction.

JAR22.345 specifies that the maximum positive load factor limits should reduce to not less than 3.5G with airbrakes fully deployed.

It is nearly always better to slow a glider by pulling G rather than opening the airbrakes."