Glider Fatality in WA

In an overshoot situation in a glider I was taught that it is better to be on
the ground overunning the landing area at 20mph rather than be too clever
trying fancy S turns at low altitude. Having said that if he had a tail wind
component wast a 180 an option?
Condolances

A 180 can only be safely done above 200 ft with good energy--just like a
rope-break. Even then, doing a 180 after over-shooting final is a good way
to stall/spin. One time while instructing, a student was way too high on
final and hadn't recognized how bad the problem was yet. By the time he
realized, he developed complete tunnel vision on the glider runway that was
now impossible to make. As we over-flew the glider runway, he wanted to try
a 180 from 100ft and 60mph. I took over, closed the spoilers, and few
straight ahead to the field you would use for a rope-break at 50 or 100 ft.
Just like planning for rope-breaks, you need to plan your missed-approach
options before you fly (or during instruction) what to do about being too
low or too high to make the usual runway.

"OscarCVox" wrote in message
...
In an overshoot situation in a glider I was taught that it is better to be
on
the ground overunning the landing area at 20mph rather than be too clever
trying fancy S turns at low altitude. Having said that if he had a tail
wind
component wast a 180 an option?
Condolances

"Mike Muncey" wrote in message
...
A 180 can only be safely done above 200 ft with good energy--just like a
rope-break. Even then, doing a 180 after over-shooting final is a good
way
to stall/spin.

Why?
Provided a well banked turn is used and appropriate speed (and 60knts is on
the low side) given the prevailing wind conditions It is perfectly valid
manouver even below 200ft. There are plenty of winch sites in the UK where
in calm conditions this is a recognised recovery from cable breaks
especially where landing straight ahead is not an option. In any sort of
wind a 180 is asking for trouble as you will be landing downwind but a 270
to land cross wind may be valid or even a 360. S Turns are no longer taught
in the UK on the basis that it will rarely help your position with regard to
the remaining landing length and loses more height than a 360. (Each S turn
is effectively a min of 180 and normally 360 + increased drag from the 3
changes in direction) In addition a 360 should increase your landing room
provided it is not calm as the wind will sweep you back down the runway at
the very least you will not be any worse off. The big problem with turns
executed near ground is the tendency to haul back due to ground proximity,
over ruddering to try and get round quicker and the mistaken psycological
belief that a shallow turn is better. It is remarkable how little height a
modern glider loses in a 360 provided it is flown acurately. In the UK great
emphasis is given to low accurate flying before you go solo at a winch site.
My last Aero cable break was 150ft over the end of the runway in calm
conditions and in that scenario a 180 was the right thing to do. That said
the only time you should be executing these sort of manouvers (Low turns)
is off a break or other emergency.
However IMHO the biggest cause of landings going wrong is too short a final
appoach or low circuit leading to the pilot cramping the final leg giving
the pilot a higher workload and less time to realise that things are going
to pot. A high longer final approach is inherently safer as the pilot has
minutes rather than seconds to recognise an over/undershoot and has more
alternatives to correct his/her mistake. Obviously wind sheer, thermals and
turbulance can cause difficulties but if the approach starts off right with
half brakes then you have a reasonable amount of leeway either way in most
gliders. How many of us manage finals on 1/2 brakes as opposed to full every
time? Next time you approach flare with full brakes ask yourself what would
happen if you had hit extra lift and why you had full brakes.
Remember it is rarely the final action that is the real killer but the
events that got you in that position to start with.
Stay Safe Fly High

Stephen

At 02:48 26 June 2004, Stephen Haley wrote:

Why?
Provided a well banked turn is used and appropriate
speed (and 60knts is on the low side) given the prevailing

wind conditions It is perfectly valid manouver even
below
200ft.

Rope- and cable breaks occur across a wide variety
of conditions at a wide variety of altitudes. Sometimes
they come with obvious audible and visual cues. Sometimes
you don't know it's happened until you see that you're
not keeping up with the towplane.

The 200-foot altitude is generally chosen as a turnaround
gate because it leaves usually-adequate margin to recognize
the situation and effect a 180-degree turn even under
less-than-perfect conditions. Sometimes it's not enough.
Sometimes, as you point out, it has generous margin.

Going off on a tangent, the thing I observe about too
many of the recent accidents is that maneuvers intended
to protect the aircraft from minor damage are resulting
instead in loss of control with attendant major damage,
injury, dismemberment, and death. It harkens back to
the value trap that Pirsig invokes in _Zen and the
art...,_ where the monkey forgets to value its life
greater than the handful of grain that restrains its
fist in the trap.

More later -

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

Going off on a tangent, the thing I observe about too
many of the recent accidents is that maneuvers intended
to protect the aircraft from minor damage are resulting
instead in loss of control with attendant major damage,
injury, dismemberment, and death.

Hi Bob,

Today we had the service for Joe, it was joyful and tearful......both
emotional states keenely balanced and teeter-tottering back and forth
within moments of each other. It was obvious by the family and friends
that attended, he was loved, repected and cherished.......he WILL be
missed.

Ironic about your tangent statement; since that is what we observed as
well.

Suffice to say that there were several small factors that did lead to
this accident. The sum total resulted in the fatal stall spin......but
taken individually were most likely opportunities for learning, but in
total were overwhelming.

This is not the post to enunerate that list......perhaps we should
start a new thread about lessons learned.

Regards,
Brad

PS.....Bob, your hand-cut fillet file is on the way!

Although we can focus on the maneuvers that occurred in the last seconds
before the crash, we shouldn't forget that there were mistakes leading
up to that point that should be considered. What was his altitude at
the IP, was he checking things along the way (TLAR)? Did he turn in too
soon (turn to base). It's rarely one single mistake that leads to
accidents, but a compilation.

Mark Nyberg wrote:
On Sunday afternoon June 19th Joseph Patton died in a glider accident
at Bergseth Field near Enumclaw, WA. Joe had been flying for a few
hours in his motorglider, came in for landing with too much altitude,
stalled and crashed. Joe died instantly.

There will be a visitation (opportunity to pay last respects and talk
with his family) on Friday June 25th from 4 to 8 PM at the
Bonney-Watson Funeral Home. The funeral home is located at 1732
Broadway (between Denny and Pine, across the street from the Seattle
Central Community College) in Seattle on Capitol Hill. Parking is
available on the north side of the funeral home.

Funeral Services will be held in the chapel at that same funeral home
on Saturday June 26th at 11:00 AM.

"Mark Zivley" wrote in message
m...
Although we can focus on the maneuvers that occurred in the last seconds
before the crash, we shouldn't forget that there were mistakes leading
up to that point that should be considered. What was his altitude at
the IP, was he checking things along the way (TLAR)? Did he turn in too
soon (turn to base). It's rarely one single mistake that leads to
accidents, but a compilation.

Exactly: Speaking about pattern planning in general, rather than this sad
incident in particular...

One problem with glider flying is that by the time you get in a position to
properly read the wind sock, your options may already be starting to narrow.

But what if you are so sure about the wind direction that you forget to
check the sock at all?

Suppose for just a moment that you manage to enter your downwind leg
without noticing that there has been a 180-degree wind shift since your launch.
On "downwind", you notice excessive altitude loss due to the undiagnosed
headwind and (thinking you had hit sink) turn base early. That headwind on your
"downwind" leg will now turn into an unexpected tailwind as soon as you turn
final from base--a base leg that is suddenly very close to the fence because the
wind has blown you towards the runway, rather than away from it as you expected.
You now find yourself high, with a high groundspeed, and already over the fence
with significant runway quickly disappearing behind you.

Now your options have REALLY narrowed!


Vaughn

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:54:36 UTC, "Vaughn"
wrote:

: Suppose for just a moment that you manage to enter your downwind leg
: without noticing that there has been a 180-degree wind shift since your launch.

I confess. I have been there and done that. Those sea breeze fronts
can come through damn fast. And I did check the windsock, but only to
register the orientation of the wee orange triangle relative to the
runway. Realising that the ground was passing roughly 25 kt faster
than I expected at round out was a character building moment.

Ian


--

Interesting that there has been no mention of side-slipping and yet that
would be my immediate thought if I believed I was too high to get onto the
ground without overshooting?

Rich...

Mark Nyberg wrote:

A credible witness observed that by the time Joe realized he was in
trouble, he was too high, etc...

"Richard Branch" wrote in
message ...
Interesting that there has been no mention of side-slipping and yet that
would be my immediate thought if I believed I was too high to get onto the
ground without overshooting?

Rich...
Ian Johnston did, somewhat earlier in the thread:

"I'm a sideslip enthusiast at such times myself. With full brake and a
full rudder slip the Pirat comes down like a parachute...

Ian

"