"position & hold" going away

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...
Robert M. Gary wrote:
That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...

Blueskies wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt


Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...



That can be changed also.


Matt

Blueskies wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt


Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...

Sure there can. The only requirement is that that other aircraft be off
the runway before you get on it and start your takeoff roll. It's
called anticipated separation and applies to any separation standard.
As long as the separation is there when it's needed all the rest is
irrelavant.

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:23:51 -0600, Newps wrote:



Blueskies wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt


Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...

Sure there can. The only requirement is that that other aircraft be off
the runway before you get on it and start your takeoff roll. It's
called anticipated separation and applies to any separation standard.
As long as the separation is there when it's needed all the rest is
irrelavant.

Many, many, many years ago when they wee mixing prop and jet airliners
I remember sitting in the right seat of a V-35 on departure from
Detroit Metro. (DTW). We were rapidly gaining on the big tail of a
Constellation (which getting bigger fast) while a 707 was getting
closer and closer behind. We lifted off (would have cleared the tail
even if they were on the runway) as the Constellation turned off. As
I recall the 707 either caught us or passed us on roll out. But then
again as time passes my memory of that 707 has it closer and closer.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger

" Blueskies" wrote in message
. ..

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft
on the runway...



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 9. Departure Procedures and Separation

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists
if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts
takeoff roll.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:38:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


" Blueskies" wrote in message
...

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft
on the runway...



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 9. Departure Procedures and Separation

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists
if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts
takeoff roll.


And if it doesn't work out the plane on final does a go around.
Couple of times I've been cleared to land and heard, Thirty Three
Romeo, go around, aircraft on the runway!".

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

" Blueskies" wrote in message
. ..

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft
on the runway...



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 9. Departure Procedures and Separation

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists
if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts
takeoff roll.


Thanks!

On 10 Aug 2005 12:22:09 -0700, "Paul kgyy"
wrote:

I saw an announcement on Aeronews this morning that the FAA is
proposing that the "taxi into position and hold" process used at
virtually all towered airports be discontinued.

This is really gonna work great at places like Newark, LaGuardia, and
OHare.

I've never felt comfortable sitting in "position and hold". And I've
done it many times.

My opinion is that it is much better to taxi onto the runway and kind
of sit sideways, so you can see everything.

That's so much better than thinking, "I hope no one is behind us!"

Mike Weller

"Mike Weller" wrote in message
news:1124231216.c341073bb004b05a4f8ce94bd50ab494@o nlynews...

I've never felt comfortable sitting in "position and hold". And I've
done it many times.

My opinion is that it is much better to taxi onto the runway and kind
of sit sideways, so you can see everything.

That's so much better than thinking, "I hope no one is behind us!"


The purpose of P&H is to expedite the flow of traffic. Sitting kind of
sideways delays your departure.

In article et,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Mike Weller" wrote in message
news:1124231216.c341073bb004b05a4f8ce94bd50ab494@ onlynews...

I've never felt comfortable sitting in "position and hold". And I've
done it many times.
My opinion is that it is much better to taxi onto the runway and kind
of sit sideways, so you can see everything.

The purpose of P&H is to expedite the flow of traffic. Sitting kind of
sideways delays your departure.

There is sideways 90 degrees to the runway heading, and sideways
a few degrees off of runway heading so that you have a clear view
of what might be landing on you. I always try to position the
plane so I can see behind me when given 'position and hold'. The
extra half second that it take to turn to runway heading on the
take off roll is no big deal.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/