Young Eagle Safety

Jose wrote:

A problem with this methodology, it seems to me, is that other YE pilots
have reported here that it's possible to decide *retroactively* whether a
flight counts as a YE flight--a pilot might take the form along in the plane
and either turn it in afterward (assuming the pilot survived) or not.

The only one that I know of that may fit is the Colorado fatality and
even though I thought it was a YE flight (also mentioned as such in
the NTSB report), there seems to be some uncertainty that it was a YE
flight.

Ron Lee

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
Jose wrote:

A problem with this methodology, it seems to me, is that other YE pilots
have reported here that it's possible to decide *retroactively* whether
a
flight counts as a YE flight--a pilot might take the form along in the
plane
and either turn it in afterward (assuming the pilot survived) or not.

(That was me, not Jose.)

The only one that I know of that may fit is the Colorado fatality and
even though I thought it was a YE flight (also mentioned as such in
the NTSB report), there seems to be some uncertainty that it was a YE
flight.

Right. The question is how many more like that there may be that we *don't*
know of; even a single instance dramatically changes the YE fatality rate.
The NTSB mentioned YE in the Colorado instance only because a witness on the
ground happened to be aware of and mention the flight's (alleged) status as
a YE flight.

--Gary

Ron Lee

"Gary Drescher" wrote:
But there's an entirely different, additional distortion
that I'm addressing: if there are many flights that might not
count as YE flights if there's an accident, but will
count as YE if there's not an accident,

It's a distortion if true. I have no clue. What's the factual
basis for your clue?

Hm, does the NTSB necessarily know about crash-related
insurance claims, settlements, or lawsuits?

If NTSB answers the telephone. If there's substantial hull damage
or serious injury, I think the ins co, and/or a plaintiff's att'y,
expects FAA/NTSB to know about it and for them to proceed if they
didn't know.

If a plaintiff says a flight was a YE flight and the EAA
denies it,

The truth will be sought in the usual way in which plaintiffs
discover evidence, such as sworn depositions.

Fred F.

"TaxSrv" wrote in message
...
"Gary Drescher" wrote:
But there's an entirely different, additional distortion
that I'm addressing: if there are many flights that might not
count as YE flights if there's an accident, but will
count as YE if there's not an accident,

It's a distortion if true. I have no clue. What's the factual
basis for your clue?

The factual basis is the report that some YE pilots have made here that any
flight by an EAA pilot with a young passenger can count as a YE flight if
the paperwork is filled out and sent in. That creates a strong potential for
the distortion I'm speaking of. The extent to which the potential is
realized is a matter of sheer guesswork, which I'm not inclined to indulge
in one way or the other. So my conclusion is that we just don't know, with
any reasonable reliability, how YE's fatality rate compares with GA
generally. I'm not insisting that it's *not* lower; I just don't think
there's good evidence either way.

Hm, does the NTSB necessarily know about crash-related
insurance claims, settlements, or lawsuits?

If NTSB answers the telephone. If there's substantial hull damage
or serious injury, I think the ins co, and/or a plaintiff's att'y,
expects FAA/NTSB to know about it and for them to proceed if they
didn't know.

Offhand, I don't know of any reason that a plantiff or insurer would care
whether the FAA or NTSB knows that a flight was a YE flight; what reason do
you see for that? (And if the child's parent(s) were aboard the fatal flight
too, there might not be anyone left who even knows that it was intended to
be a YE flight.)

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote:
So my conclusion is that we just don't know, with any
reasonable reliability, how YE's fatality rate compares with
GA generally.

Offhand, I don't know of any reason that a plantiff or insurer
would care whether the FAA or NTSB knows that a flight
was a YE flight; what reason do you see for that?

On both points, fatal cases especially are thoroughly investigated.
I was a witness on a fatal case, and since we all were from out of
town, I had dinner with the guys by just showing up at the same
restaurant that evening. They interview a whole bunch of people
with any knowledge of the pilot and the flight. It might include
exploring behind a pax a stranger to the pilot. They often need
indirect evidence to understand what probably happened. This is
likely what happened in the Colorado case, except no signed release
to be found.

I suspect at least 90% of YE flights are scheduled events. For a
chapter member to just fly three kids in an extended family on a
Saturday becomes such with a phone call or email to EAA. Why?
Because EAA insurance coverage only partially covers you if at all
for an ad hoc flight on your own. To get self-protection of the
full $1 million, follow simple rules. For an unfavorable fatal
rate, we'd be looking for about 5-6 more cases where the fact of a
fatal ad hoc, YE flight among the 10% didn't turn up in the
investigation. Highly improbable beyond the fact that on those
flights you likely know the parents, like of the neighbor's kid,
and act very responsibly.

Fred F.

Jose wrote:

What do YE hours buy the pilot?

Satisfaction, for the most part. You also get your name listed in certain EAA
publications.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

By the way, I emailed the EAA to ask about the 1998 Colorado crash during
what appeared (according to the NTSB report) to be a Young Eagles flight.
They explained that according to their own investigation, the passenger had
turned 18 and was no longer a Young Eagle, but instead was a volunteer at
the Young Eagles flight rally earlier in the day. They say they told this to
the NTSB at the time. (I see no reason to doubt their explanation, so I'd
agree that the flight was indeed not a Young Eagles flight.)

--Gary