How to tell my instructor to increase glidespeed with headwind?

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly and have been lucky enough to have an
instructor who would work that way with me.

However, and this is the biggie, the piece of knowledge we're talking
about...simply ain't taught if you're in a 172, for instance!!

If the POH has a published best glide speed, the instructor and the
examiner expect you to know that value and fly it. If you can explain a
variation, great! Go for it! You're still going to be asked to fly the
airplane to the POH spec. So perhaps my assumption is the fault in my
reasoning: I assumed an airplane where the POH publishes a value and,
as you examine the curriculum, it becomes apparent that the POH and the
candidates familiarity and observance of the data seem to be treated as
paramount. Check out the PPL knowledge guides for the written exam and
you'll note that this subject isn't even part of the curriculum!

I was once on a check out flight in a 172 over water next to Paine
field. Winds at altitude were gusting to speeds higher than the
published best glide. Instructor pulls the throttle, predictably, and I
react using the published data. He notes this and I observe to him, "We
aren't going to make that field upwind and 2 miles from us because
we're going backward."

"So what are you going to do?", he says.

"I'm going to trade altitude for speed to make that field as there are
no other clear areas reachable from this altitude including downwind.",
I reply.

"Fine, do it.", says he.

Same theory, same issue.

I think it would be good for Nik to chase that data down and teach his
instructor something he might need to know. But I don't think it will
do him much good if his examiner has a similar hole in knowledge. So
I'm suggesting should the situation repeat itself, he should
demonstrate competence in the expected manner and then consider a
conversation on the topic later. Should save him some trouble and he'll
still have useful knoweldge he can exercise should he really need it at
some point.

No instructor's knoweldge is perfectly complete, similarly, the same is
true for examiners, students or any other pilot. The situation of one
knowing something the other doesn't is normal. Attempting to share that
knowledge is good and commendable. But if doing so is going to cost
you, suppress it, get through the exercise, achieve your goal, teach
later.

That is, unless you enjoy arguing it...like we obviously do!

Greg Chapman


Peter Duniho wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
In other words, for what you're trying to get done, please the
professor first. Engage in the debate after you get your license. Odds
are that you'd have the same tough sell in front of you if you attempt
the same argument during your checkride. You can prove you're right
later.

Does that seem sensible?

That advice makes some sense for someone in Schiff's position. I don't
agree that it makes sense for a student who is actually hiring his
instructor to teach him something.

In this case, the student knows the answer, understands the answer, and is
confident in that knowledge. But what if something else comes up in which
the instructor is *also* mistaken, and in which the instructor refuses to
consider the possibility that he's wrong? If it turns out in that situation
that Nik either doesn't know for sure what the right answer is, or doesn't
even have reason to suspect the instructor is wrong, then Nik will be at a
disadvantage, being taught by an instructor who should not be instructing in
the first place.

I have had situations with instructors in which I was only to fly with the
instructor once, for the purpose of showing some competence in an airplane
or type of flight or something like that and in which the instructor said or
did something that I disagreed with (and most of the time, it turned out I
was right ). In those situations, you're right...you just go with the
flow, and let the instructor have his way (assuming it's not a safety of
flight issue, of course...I had to terminate an IPC prematurely, because of
an instructor who was so bad, he was interfering with the safety of the
flight).

But for someone with whom you expect to have an on-going relationship, even
if for a few lessons but especially for a primary student, it's important to
a) resolve every single issue to the point of truthful consensus, and b) to
know that you can trust your instructor to not tell you something is
absolutely true when in fact it's known to be absolutely false.

I don't know whether the flight in question was a one-time thing, or is part
of on-going instruction that Nik is taking from the instructor, but in
absence of that knowledge, I think it's important to make sure that no one
thinks it's okay to just let an instructor say wrong things, especially if
one is doing more than just the one flight with that instructor.

Pete

Nik wrote:
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.
After the flight I pulled up the Glider Flying handbook online and it
says:

"...it is apparent that flying a faster airspeed as the headwind
increases will result in the greatest distance over the
ground. If this is done for the polar curves from many
gliders, a general rule of thumb is found, namely, add
half the headwind component to the best L/D for the
maximum distance."

But even after telling him that he said that doesn't apply to power
planes, also saying that manuals never give best glide, and there has
to be a reason for that.

Do you guys have any ideas on how I can really convince him? Any good
sources?

Thanks!
-Nik

Once the engine quits, the power plane is a glider, albeit one with a
really sucky glide ratio. As someone else pointed out, ask the
instructor what the best glide speed is if there is a headwind that
equals the POH recommended glide speed.

This is just one area in which I have come to believe that pilots with
glider experience have an edge over power pilots. I truly believe that
glider pilots have to know a lot more about their airplanes,
micro-weather, etc.

Instructors are people. Sometimes they are wrong. Since they are in
something of an authority position, there is a tendency to defend an
idea. Attempting to teach them something can be a learning
experience--the student will gain some experience in diplomacy, and
might find out that HE is wrong himself. Usually, I've found that the
instructor and student are looking at two slightly different things,
and that continuing a rational conversation will iron things out.

If not, there are lots of instructors out there. Avoid getting bent
out of shape.

well.. glide speed adjustments into a headwind applies to every thing that
moves through the air.. just ask the birds. do the math.. what is his
effective L/d over the ground if he does not increase speed

and.. my New C-182T POD does give "best glide" speed.

"Nik" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.
After the flight I pulled up the Glider Flying handbook online and it
says:

"...it is apparent that flying a faster airspeed as the headwind
increases will result in the greatest distance over the
ground. If this is done for the polar curves from many
gliders, a general rule of thumb is found, namely, add
half the headwind component to the best L/D for the
maximum distance."

But even after telling him that he said that doesn't apply to power
planes, also saying that manuals never give best glide, and there has
to be a reason for that.

Do you guys have any ideas on how I can really convince him? Any good
sources?

Thanks!
-Nik

I'll bet that instructor will get dizzy looking at that web page and stick
to his guns... even though he's carrying blanks.

BT

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Nik" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.
...
But even after telling him that he said that doesn't apply to power
planes, also saying that manuals never give best glide, and there has
to be a reason for that.

Do you guys have any ideas on how I can really convince him? Any good
sources?

You might try pointing him to
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/power.ht...nd-penetration.

Or you might try to convince him to let you fly it both ways and see which
way gets you further.

If that doesn't persuade him, you might decide do it his way when you fly
with him, and do it the right way at other times.

--Gary

That rule of thumb doesn't quite work, as the wing loading is different.
I would guess 4 to 6 knots but I've not the time for the maths right now.

Nik wrote:
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.
After the flight I pulled up the Glider Flying handbook online and it
says:

"...it is apparent that flying a faster airspeed as the headwind
increases will result in the greatest distance over the
ground. If this is done for the polar curves from many
gliders, a general rule of thumb is found, namely, add
half the headwind component to the best L/D for the
maximum distance."

But even after telling him that he said that doesn't apply to power
planes, also saying that manuals never give best glide, and there has
to be a reason for that.

Do you guys have any ideas on how I can really convince him? Any good
sources?

Richard Collins.

Thanks!
-Nik

Nik wrote:
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.
After the flight I pulled up the Glider Flying handbook online and it
says:

"...it is apparent that flying a faster airspeed as the headwind
increases will result in the greatest distance over the
ground. If this is done for the polar curves from many
gliders, a general rule of thumb is found, namely, add
half the headwind component to the best L/D for the
maximum distance."

But even after telling him that he said that doesn't apply to power
planes, also saying that manuals never give best glide, and there has
to be a reason for that.

Do you guys have any ideas on how I can really convince him? Any good
sources?

Thanks!
-Nik


Most airplane training books don't discuss this concept, and POH rarely
ever mention this. We are taught by a system that enforces the view
that we should follow the POH exactly and not improvise anything. So it
is not unreasonable that this instructor never gave much thought to
this concept until you challenged him. However, most intelligent people
will realize this as soon as you point it out. You owe him at least
that much. If he doesn't turn around, then you have to start wondering
what other uncorrected misconceptions that he is passing on to you.

Everyone makes and has misconceptions, but stubbornly holding on to
them in the face of opposing evidence is what distinguishes an
intellect from others.

"Nik" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.
After the flight I pulled up the Glider Flying handbook online and it
says:

"...it is apparent that flying a faster airspeed as the headwind
increases will result in the greatest distance over the
ground. If this is done for the polar curves from many
gliders, a general rule of thumb is found, namely, add
half the headwind component to the best L/D for the
maximum distance."

But even after telling him that he said that doesn't apply to power
planes, also saying that manuals never give best glide, and there has
to be a reason for that.

Do you guys have any ideas on how I can really convince him? Any good
sources?

Without trying to second guess your instructor, I am not convinced from your
discussion that this represents a lack of knowledge on the part of your
instructor. He may simply be trying to keep things as simple as possible.
The idea of frequent practiced forced landings without power is to hopefully
give you the skills to do it without thinking in the event that it happens
to you in real life when you will likely be racked with shear terror.
Practicing at the published best glide speed , roughly gives you a constant
attitude "picture" that enables you to focus more outside the aircraft than
on the airspeed indicator. You could have a similar argument about weight
as the best glide speed will be significantly lower if you are flying solo
and especially if the reason for engine failure was no fuel! But are you
going to get out the calculator and calculate the weight corrected best
glide speed when the noise stops? Should an instructor tell you that flying
a Warrior solo would have a best glide speed closer to 65 kts than the
published 73kts? There is enough to learn already without over finessing
things too early in the learning. After all we know the learning really
starts after you get the license.
terry

In article . com,
says...
Ok, my instructor did a simulated engine failure in the pattern; winds
were around 20kts in the air and 13kts on the ground. Did everything
perfectly; however after we took off again, he told me to maintain 65
kts next time, and I totally disagreed.
The manual says 65 kts for best glide speed; however that is in calm
air. As a glider person, I know adding about 1/2 the headwind component
will give the greatest distance.

Yes, the greatest *distance* - if you *need* it. Otherwise, I think
he's right - fly at 65kts, and you get the longest time in the air
(something you're short of usually, when the fan dies).

But yep, you're right, *if* you need to get the distance to make the
field.

--
Duncan

Jay Beckman writes:

Sure as hell, some student pilot will believe his increadible bull**** and
go get themselves killed.

That is far less likely than a student pilot being killed by his
unquestioning acceptance of misinformation from a flight instructor
whom he has been told not to question.

It amazes me that students are being advised here to accept
misinformation and inaccuracy just for a piece of paper. However, it
does explain the misdeeds of some pilots. And it does resemble the
credentialism that afflicts society in general--a belief that the
paper is more important than what it putatively represents (because
restrictions address the paper, not the qualities it is supposed to
document).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On 1 Nov 2006 16:16:10 -0800, wrote in
. com:

But, what is it you're
trying to do? Prove something he doesn't know? Or are you more
interested in proving your competence by his standards?

I understand what you are saying, but to admire the nude emperor's new
suit of clothes, and thus compromise one's personal standard of truth
and honesty, is repugnant at best, and mendacious in fact. Personally,
I would unable to do that.